this post was submitted on 28 May 2024
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That's not what I am trying to say exactly, though it has half-right and I will explain more in a second.
What I was talking about is things like the double empathy problem and some other things that happen in communication between autistic and neuro typical people. The double empathy problem and similar issues can be explained thusly: Autistic people have no issue communicating or emapthising with other autistic people. NT people have no issues communicating or empathiing with other NT people. Problems only arise when NT and autistic people try to communicate or empathise with each other. Both sides have been shown to struggle that's why it's called the double empathy problem. It's not that autistic people are deficient, anymore than NT people are deficient for not being able to empathise with autistic people. They simply don't work the same way much like oil and water are bound differently and don't mix well.
As for what you are saying: yes there are some things autistic people struggle with cognitively or emotionally, but there are also areas where we do better than NT people cognitively. I don't think it's really fair to call one defective for being less effective at certain tasks, while the other is less effective than others.
That's where we get into ideas like neurodiversity, the idea that humans are meant to have multiple neurotypes with different sensory, communication, and cognitive abilities. This may have happened to fill some evolutionary role much like early bird vs night owls, or the different traits of men vs women. Maybe we shouldn't be medicalising parts of the human race just because they aren't average.
There have been theories and ideas and philosophies that attempt to replace or extend the concept of neurodiversity, and I won't go into all of them here. Let's just say though that this stuff is a lot more contested and complicated than just "autism is a disease". It might even be like sickle cell anemia, where carrying the genes protects you from malaria at the cost of some people being disabled by sickle cells.
It's not even completely clear that everything we call the autism spectrum today is actually all the same thing. It's also possible things like schizophrenia and ADHD which we know are at least connected might be considered part of the same spectrum with what we call autism today. Does that make sense?
I will have a go at responding to some of this tomorrow. I have to go do stuff and then get to bed as it's like 4am where I am.
Yes, that does make sense. And no, it is not my intention to continually pathologize autism as a defect. If LLMs are useful despite their obvious deficiencies, why wouldn't autistic people be? It's kind of sad yet ironic that NT society, after mostly abandoning and/or abusing autistic people has now decided to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to create what could be considered a simulation of autistic intelligence, when they could have spent that money on autism research and finding better ways to integrate these people into society.
There IS in fact a very good case to be made that it's NT people who are defective, or at least deficient in ways that NA people are not, and that both could benefit from a better integration. At the risk of opening yet another potentially contentious topic, I've heard it being speculated that NA people are often of the priest or shaman archetype, i.e. the reason they have a hard time fitting into normal society is that they were meant to become religious mystics instead of ordinary workers, but in its relentless pursuit of profit, society has cast them aside instead of integrating them, and is now paying the price by becoming increasingly greedy, hostile, and directionless. This would certainly fit with your idea that it is a kind of adaptation that comes with both a blessing and a curse.
I hope that I'm not triggering another trauma-based response here, because Christianity seems to upset a lot of people on this site, but consider by way of example, the story of Moses and the Israelites in the desert: clearly Moses is neuro-atypical when compared to the rest of the Israelites, because he can speak to God directly, while the rest of them cannot. All they are concerned with is having enough food and water, and they don't care where it comes from – so much so, they even long to return to their days of slavery because at least they had something to eat back then. They clearly can't see the bigger picture, they have no awareness of the dangers that slavery puts them in, and they can hardly imagine the benefits of a life lived in freedom instead of servitude.
I'm not trying to convert you here, but I have indeed found great solace and healing in studying religion and mysticism as a sort of counterweight to the heavy burden of having had to earn my way in life by trying to be commercially productive for eight hours a day. I also find that when I do so without concerning myself with the dogmata of any existing church, the mysteries seem to open up in ways that I could not see before. Of course, this sort of endeavor is highly dangerous to TPTB, so it tends to cause massive anxiety, but I'm at a point in my life where that seems preferable to anger, depression and resignation.
I think religious mysticism is associated with schizophrenia specifically. There was actually a great ted talk about the role of schizophrenic people in societies in the past. Sadly though I am not of the opinion that religion is a force for good in modern society. It's been used to control people an awful lot, and ultimately creates distortions in the way you see reality. Some religions are worse than others obviously, but I don't think any are truly good. Religion is frequently used as a reason to keep people in slavery, not to remove them from it.
I think the mainstay of autistic people in current society seems to be as scientists, computer workers, and academics. Occasionally musicians, artists and performers though those often aren't treated that well in society unfortunately. Many end up unemployed, in prison, or in social housing and so on.
We need to find a way to make a society that benefits everyone instead of just the people at the top of the hierarchy. Doing that is extremely difficult. Society is full of alignment problems where what's best for you is harmful for everyone else, especially for those at the top. There is a reason people at the top of society have more ASPD traits than others. Theoretically people with ASPD (those who used to be termed sociopaths and psychopaths) used to and probably could play an actual positive role in society, but because of alignment issues they are funneled into either prison, the military, or as business leaders and politicians who do damage untold to the general population.
Yes, that TED talk is probably where I got this idea from. And I agree on most other points except that religion COULD be a force for good, and insofar as it is currently not, it is in need of new leadership. Sociopaths and psychopaths indeed seem to have a knack for infiltrating positions of power and there's no reason why religion should be immune to that.
Anyways, just thought I'd throw that out there. Not gonna get into details of what needs to change because that's likely very personal and sure to get contentious. Looking forward to your response on my other comments though.
I thought you supported logic? Why are you now supporting things like religion which attempt to distort reality and are inherently illogical?
Organized religion is even more dangerous than simply believing in god(s). Any position with that kind of power inevitably ends in cult-like behaviour and other abuses of power (see Catholic priests and just Catholicism in general). It's not something anyone should be engaging in a perfect world.
I do support logic – it's a wonderful tool, but it's not sufficient in and of itself to live by because it can be excessively cruel. If you think about it, there is no logical reason why you should be alive – no scientist has yet been able to give an explanation for the universe or life itself to exist that doesn't somehow leave a kernel of irreducible irrationality.
And no, that doesn't mean you have to follow any organized religion – in fact, that's not at all what I was suggesting. I merely said that that there may be value in studying religious scripture for yourself without adhering to an established dogma. If Christianity rubs you the wrong way, perhaps try Buddhism, which puts a stronger emphasis on putting everyone of its teachings to the test (basically, the Buddha himself said not to follow him blindly but merely to try out the things he suggests and observe if they make a difference in your life, meaning it's perfectly acceptable to use the scientific method in your pursuit of it, as long as you apply it with full integrity).
Long story short, I think it's a mistake to assume that a perfect world would be one of perfect rationality, because such a world would be too cold and boring to live in. There has to be a source of randomness left in it because otherwise, nothing new would ever happen, and without renewal, the only possible destination is death.