this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2023
182 points (99.5% liked)

Memes

45172 readers
2337 users here now

Rules:

  1. Be civil and nice.
  2. Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Napain@latte.isnot.coffee 73 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (36 children)

the point is not to exploit others labor by expropriation of the means of production, no one cares what you do with your own labor

[–] El_Rocha@lm.put.tf 5 points 1 year ago (32 children)

What if a person creates a new type of clothing that has high demand because it's better than what exists before?

What if that person starts getting interest from other people who want the clothes and they try to trade currency (I'm not sure if in your communist system this exists, so consider other items people have or something) and then transactions start to happen?

What if the person gets so busy, he gets another person to help him with the trades in exchange for a fixed amount?

In which of these steps does it turn from "no one cares what you do with your own labor" to "give us your business or else"?

[–] read_deleuze@lemmy.ml 37 points 1 year ago (26 children)

This simply wouldn't happen because an anarchist society wouldn't recognize intellectual property and so it would be trivial to just... make more of this kind of clothing. And no, there is no currency, and barter would be pointless as access to goods is common anyways.

This whole point to me signals a deeper (but common) misunderstanding as to what the point of it all is, though; there would be no incentive or reason for someone to act this way in any kind of postcapitalist society, because the assumptions you are making that even make this situation possible are false.

Labour is not a repulsive act that people have to be paid to do; for virtually any "job", even the most repulsive, there are some people who are truly passionate about it. But in a society where doing said work is demanded under threat of starvation, any appeal it may have had is soured by the reality of this situation and it shifts from a fulfilling and desirable action to a repulsive one.

As an extra point that not all anarchists will agree with, increases in productivity thanks to automation and technological progress (often spearheaded not by corporate projects under NDA but by the open-source community and individual hackers, only to be commercialized by corporations) mean that the real quantity of work that needs to be performed to uphold humanity at a good standard of living is drastically less than the amount currently being performed. Capitalism is inefficient, both in that it doesn't allocate resources where they're productive (accumulation of capital) and because of work duplication and artificial barriers (tech and engineering firms keeping code/designs private or patented, industry keeping trade secrets, etc.)

tl;dr that scenario is impossible.

[–] FlowVoid@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not sure the problem is so trivial.

Long before the existence of IP, people who developed something new would keep their manufacturing process secret in order to prevent competition. Even today, sometimes they still do (in fact, the purpose of patents is to discourage trade secrets).

Now suppose someone invents a new medicine, or a new alloy, or a new machine, or a new algorithm, and refuses to tell anyone how it was made or how it works.

And suppose reverse engineering isn't feasible. Maybe it's too much work considering the value of the product (nobody is interested in reverse engineering your particular favorite shampoo). Or maybe the machine uses sufficiently strong encryption to prevent its reproduction. Or maybe there is some other obstacle.

Again, before modern capitalism these problems were the norm. If you wanted a very particular product, you often had no choice but to find a very particular provider.

As before, at what point does paying someone to help make such a product become exploitation?

[–] AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You're still missing a core part of the point. In most/all of the world today and in history, when you make something new, your reward is dependent on stopping other people making or selling the same thing without paying you. It therefore makes sense to keep things secret. People don't even always do that, though - if you look at GitHub or Thingiverse, you'll see loads of people giving the right to use their intellectual property away for free. Reasons for that vary, but some are similar to how people would theoretically think under anarcho-communism. Some examples include:

  • you're annoyed that the previous best way to do something is crap, so you make a new one. The more people copying your design, the less the annoying old one gets used, and the less annoyed you are.
  • working on interesting projects is interesting in and of itself and finishing annoying ones is satisfying, so when you don't need a particular reward beyond that, there's no reason not to share.
  • you think your cool new thing will be even cooler if other people collaborate with you, and that's easier if everyone shares their improvements.

As for things that aren't generating intellectual property, and just involve doing labour, the idea is that there'll be enough people upset by something not getting done that they'll do it proactively. E.g. some people will want to take a look at the sewers once a week to check for blockages because they're worried their drains might overflow if they don't. It's not too different to people volunteering to clean up community spaces today, except people wouldn't have to do it on top of a day job. If that gets too annoying, people will invent new tools to make it easier or totally automate it, whereas they'd have instead been inventing whatever their manager thought would please investors under the current system.

A cultural shift where nearly everyone agreed this was a good way to do things would be necessary, but it's not like they aren't examples of the same ideas working in the real world.

load more comments (24 replies)
load more comments (29 replies)
load more comments (32 replies)