this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2024
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Anti-Zionist Jews are a very, very small minority. They're fringe. The fact of the matter is that Israel is closely associated with Jews because it is the Jewish homeland. That's why antisemitism spikes around the world when violence flares up in Israel - because people hold all Jews responsible for what happens there.
While someone can logically be anti-Zionist without being antisemitic, we're not dealing with logical arguments. This isn't a philosophy class. This is the real world. And the inconvenient truth for many on the left is that there is a significant overlap between the anti-Zionist and antisemite circles on the Venn diagram. Most people just don't want to confront their unconscious biases about Jewish people.
So here's the thing. If someone is going to say with a straight face that they "stand with Israel", even when Israel is committing genocide in their name, then those people are effectively throwing in their lot with genociders and frankly I have little sympathy for them. Thankfully, nearly every Jew I've ever met has been very critical of Israel (including the Israeli citizens), many of which have confessed zero interest in an ethnostate, preferring a liberal democracy with no state religion. A secular state for both Jews and Muslims -- from the river to the sea if you will.
These people may well be the minority, but you'll forgive me if I won't accept the assumption that the majority of the 15 million Jews around the world support genocide. Call me a naΓ―ve optimist if you like, but I want to believe that most people are better than that.
Israel is not committing genocide. Calling it a genocide is extremely disrespectful to people who have, you know, actually suffered genocides.
I haven't met a single Jew ever in my life that thinks, "Israel is perfect and everything they do is right and every single government policy is right." Perhaps you remember the large protests that were taking place before Oct 7 regarding judicial reform. "Standing with Israel" simply means "supporting Israel's right to defend itself against genocidal enemies," or perhaps more simply, "supporting Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state." It means in a war between a liberal democratic country (however imperfect) and genocidal Jew-hating terrorists, taking the side of the former rather than the latter.
The reason why anti-Zionist Jews exist now is the same reason they existed before Israel was created. Because they live in privilege and safety, assimilated into left-wing circles, and they don't want to risk losing that. Anybody who proposes a single secular state is either naive, completely ignorant of history and the broader geopolitical context of the conflict, or just doesn't give a crap about Jewish well-being. Because Israel's enemies have made it very, very clear that they aren't interested in peaceful coexistence with Jews. Their objective is to destroy Israel, along with as many Jewish lives as possible, and return the land to its rightful place in the Muslim empire.
Yeah this isn't a conversation we can have. If you're going to sit there and deny the international criminal court and somehow accept the killing of tens of thousands of children, many by sniper fire like it's comparable to bad tax policy then there's no hope for you.
Typical. "This person doesn't agree with my opinion so we can't have a conversation."
The ICJ has not ruled on the genocide accusation. Which, by the way, was brought by a country with a strong anti-Israel bias a month after entertaining Hamas leaders as visiting diplomats. And to pre-empt your response, no the ICJ did not say that genocide is plausible. The former head of the ICJ clarified herself that what they actually ruled was that it is plausible that Palestinian rights to be protected from genocide have been engaged, which is a fancy way of saying that the ICJ has jurisdiction to hear the case.
Did you know that children are the largest victim population in literally every major war in history? Do you know how many children died in WWII? If you don't want children to die in war, don't start wars.
I'm not the person you were replying to but thought I'd weigh in.
Canada attempted/committed (results varied) genocide of its first nations not by killing children (though they did do that) but by making continuation of indigenous ways of living/ culture untenable.
China is attempting genocide of its Uigher population in a similar way.
Russia's denial of Ukrainian identity and treatment of orphaned Ukrainian children is also genocidal.
Genocide is the attempt to destroy a nation/ ethnicity. It doesn't have to be murder factories to be genocide.
Do you agree?
Yes.
Do you think Israel has an interest in there not being a Palestinian nation?
Of course.
Would a strategy of making life in Palestine so difficult that everyone either capitulates or becomes radicalized [and therefore a legitimate military target] be genocide?
What would that strategy look like?
No. First of all, the Palestinian population has grown substantially since 1967. That alone is sufficient to disprove the genocide accusation. Second, blaming Israel for the plight of the Palestinian people ignores the fact that they have been governed by corrupt terrorist leaders who have done nothing to improve the lives of the people they govern because they have been single-mindedly focused on destroying Israel. Plus, it's pretty damn disrespectful to treat the Palestinian people as if they have no agency whatsoever and are just destined to be radicalized because of external forces.
I asked:
You answered "no". Can you elaborate on how you reconcile your answer with our understanding of genocide:
I know where you're headed with this so I'm just cutting it off now before we argue about your claims about what Israel is doing.
It's a bad look man