I mean if your definition of collectivism is men with guns taking what they want then yeah that sounds likely. I'm also a collective anarchist, but it's important to note how far we must come as a species before we can actually engage meaningfully in such a philosophy, otherwise it will just regress on progress made in other spheres. Bolstering of education is a good step in this process, but also moral and philosophical teachings.

Collective anarchism, along with all utopias, is unachievable, but a system incorporating its tenets is certainly possible, I just question whether it would devolve into men with guns taking what they want.

[–] Val@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (10 children)

I most certainly do not mean men with guns taking whatever they want. That is authoritarian. The revolution is an ongoing process to redefine society as a non-hierarchical. I see it as non-violent: only defending against violence, never inciting it.

Between writing that comment I read through the anarchist FAQ on revolution.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full#text-amuse-label-secj7
And I agree with it wholeheartedly.

We as a species are far enough for anarchism to work, people just have to stop believing in authority, and we have to help them.

I also do not think anarchism is a utopia. There is nothing about it that couldn't work. Non-hierarchical societies have existed, and their dissolution just means people aren't ready yet.

[–] GiveMemes@jlai.lu 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (9 children)

Yes, but in the anarchic society, what stops men with guns from taking what they want?

You understand that you can still have anarchy without collectivism right? It's just called lawlessness, and when that happens, men with guns take what they want. Literally just look at any period of political instability in pretty much any country for just about all of history. What stops our current society from devolving into that if anarchic revolution were to occur?

Also, I'm not reading the book you linked. If there's relevant information, feel free to point out which paragraph/section.

[–] furysama@mastodon.straylight.engineering 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@GiveMemes that's what current society is. You just happen to be on the side of the men with guns

[–] GiveMemes@jlai.lu 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It really isn't. There's reasons that we've created laws and it's because the vast majority can't be expected to do the right thing just because it's the right thing and this isn't a one time thing, this is the entirety of history. I'm not "on the side of the men with guns" just for pointing out the obvious issue with the utopia, just as I'm not a neo-liberal capitalist for pointing out the inherent issues with the communist utopia or a dirty commie for pointing out the obvious issued with a capitalist utopia.

As it turns out, when you just talk about something and don't actually encounter the hardships of reality, all the ideas are amazing and fantastic lol. In an anarchic society you would be killed, enslaved, or raped. Human society hasn't come to the point yet where we could transition to such an idea without those problems.

[–] furysama@mastodon.straylight.engineering 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@GiveMemes you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying you're on the side of the men with guns because you're asking questions about anarchy. I'm saying that because you literally live in a world whose status quo is enforced by violence, and you are advocating for the institutions which enforce that status quo as necessary.

[–] GiveMemes@jlai.lu 1 points 1 year ago

Every status quo is enforced by violence. That's kinda why we pursue utopian ideals is to minimize said violence. Shoot for the moon, land among the stars kinda thing.

An actual anarchist revolution would just lead to more violence tho without significant changes to our culture. Hatred, tribalism, and fear are all innate to humans. The question is how we overcome those base feelings in order to form a better society.

Anybody can give you a better society than the one that exists. It's exceedingly easy. The trick is to make it actually work.

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