If we are all just atoms moving/reacting, surely everything we'd ever do would be predetermined by the initial reactions/vectors/forces at the big bang. I know there's quantum randomness and stuff, but it's possible that's all calculable and we simply don't have the means to calculate it. If that's the case, IMO we still have freewill because we can't predict the future, and it's still worthwhile to move forward doing our best to be good people.

[–] iAmTheTot@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 day ago (3 children)

That's not a dilemma for atheists because atheists aren't the ones claiming there's an omnipotent being guiding everything.

Also, you can be both an atheist and an agnostic. They cover different things. I'm fairly certain you'd consider yourself an atheist in regards to the sun god Ra.

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[–] communist@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

This isn't a problem for athiests, I am a determinist athiest, we have no free will and the idea is silly in a place governed by physical laws. It honestly doesn't matter at all to me and I don't see any reason to care.

it's a problem for theists because this is supposed to be a big test, god is checking if we belong in heaven. If we have no free will the test makes no sense at all.

[–] eru@mouse.chitanda.moe 3 points 1 day ago (12 children)

not a christian, but it is a problem for atheists depending on your framework of morality

traditionally, determinism is not compatible with moral responsibility since all actions are predetermined and it is not obvious that one can be held morally responsible for them. you have to do some mental gymnastics with either the nature of causation (see hume), or the nature of morality (see error theory), or the nature of what exactly 'freedom' is (see john stewart mill) to resolve this incompatibility

to the problem of the theist test, standard christian doctrine is that your fate in heaven is predetermined and individuals have been pre-chosen by god (theological term is 'the elect'). in that sense, your worldly life is not a 'test', but the idea is that the holy spirit reveals god to those who have been selected.

there are philosophical problems with all of these, but just wanted to make the point that both theist and atheist philosophers have been debating this for hundreds of years and it is not at all actually obvious accepting hard determinism solves everything.

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[–] psud@aussie.zone 1 points 1 day ago

I don't think believing in fate (or a plan) is strongly correlated with atheism

[–] Telorand@reddthat.com 6 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I think you can have this same dilemma as an atheist as well.

I'd like to hear your opinions on how you think so (truly). The way I see things, Atheism is only the answer to a single question: do you believe in any gods? If "yes," you're a theist or deist. If "no; I don't know; not currently; maybe one day," then you're an atheist. It's not a philosophy or a comprehensive worldview, and it can't possibly answer deeper questions.

What you're referring to in the latter half is Determinism and Compatibilism (Determinism + free will). Science is currently leaning pretty strongly towards Determinism, but since Compatibilism doesn't add much more to the idea, it's also still a candidate possibility.

It's very likely you could calculate every chain reaction from the Big Stretch up until now and maybe even into the future. Whether we have the ability to affect or disrupt those chains might be a matter of philosophy.

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[–] RoidingOldMan@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

"I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

George W Bush

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html

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[–] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com -5 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

Libs: The religious concept of "free will" is fundamental to our ideology because it justifies prisons, wars, exploitation, colonialism, etc. Historically it's all the same thing.

[–] ICastFist@programming.dev 6 points 1 day ago

No matter how well you point out the paradox (if God knows everything that will happen, free will doesn't exist, because everything is predetermined, just like a fully written book), a significant portion of christians will simply ignore and keep circling between "but God gave us free will" and "God knows everything"

[–] LandedGentry@lemmy.zip 7 points 1 day ago (3 children)

I’m tempted to give the actual theological answer here but I have a feeling it will not be well received lol

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[–] tacobellhop@midwest.social 2 points 1 day ago

Thought terminating cliche

[–] BachtnDeKuupe@lemm.ee 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Satan: Hey, i only do Black Metal bands and orgies, all other things are with the other bloke

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