Blåhaj Lemmy is a Lemmy instance attached to blahaj.zone. This is a group for questions or discussions relevant to either instance.
After speaking to one of their admins and seeing the change in the rules on hexbear, I'm happy enough with the outcome.
Trans solidarity is incredibly important. It's the reason this instance exists. I prioritise that.
Hexbear (and Beehaw) is one of the only Lemmy instances that genuinely prioritise the protection of their gender diverse users, and honestly, if for nothing else, I believe it's worth a bit of discomfort to find a way of staying connected.
Im very saddened to hear this. Sounds like staying in an abusive relationship because "They have good times too". I hope you rethink this decision, or myself and atleast a few others will stop using this instance
All I can say though is the reason I am making the choice not to defederate now is because I believe that this is the best chance of developing a large positive trans userbase on the lemmyverse. At the moment, unlike the broader fediverse, lemmy and kbin are quite hostile or indifferent to trans folk. Despite hexbears bullshit, one thing they are, is strongly supportive of trans rights. And if the bullshit is kept to their own instance, then we can benefit from the voices of their trans users.
If they can't keep their bullshit under control, then we'll cut them off.
Why not give it a chance and see how it goes?
The users of hexbear just are very bitter that we didn't adore their aggressive comments on the last post. I really just have a hard time seeing anything good coming of remaining federated.
They just call everyone who doesn't like their behavior a whiny liberal.
And what's your opinion on this admins take from their post on their recent rule change?
It's one of the highest upvoted comments on the thread.
Or the highest upvoted comment in that thread that's pretty blatant on how they feel about coming over to the rest of Lemmy?
First comment for me, but I've been a blahaj member since the migration. When I learned about hexbear, I was really excited because I lurked r/cth back in the day and always liked their content a lot. I'm a GenX queer anarcho-syndicalist who is terminally irony poisoned and moderately online, so it's basically my people.
So I spent a bit of time looking at what they've built over the last 3 years and it was impressive. The reasons behind the mandatory pronouns are fantastic. As a cis person (sorry), whenever I specify my pronouns, it's an attempt to normalize specifying them so that it isn't just for trans people. That's why they added them in hexbear, and when they did that, it outed a whole bunch of transphobes and shitty people, who were then removed from the instance. Sounds like good praxis to me. Seeing cynical interpretations of that sucks.
They also don't allow downvoting, same as us, for many of the same reasons.
What we're seeing right now is a culture shock because they've only been loose in the fediverse for a week, and the folx over at hexbear are having a struggle session about it. They've been in a bubble for a while and they seem to know it They didn't know their emojis were so big, they're working out guidelines for engagement, they're trying to rein in the users who are getting too aggressive (including admins and mods DMing people).
It would be really cool if we at least gave them a couple more weeks to get the hang of things. Their communities are easy to block and the instance as a whole is very value aligned with blahaj. Queer and leftist unity is important.
Being harassed and called a lib for criticizing their dogpiling doesn't feel like unity to me.
Not minimizing that at all, a lot of that wasn't cool, but it was a handful of users from a very large instance, so it wasn't necessarily the fault of the whole instance. They're having internal arguments about that last thread, and many of them feel gross about it (notice they aren't here this time). They're also gonna have some new users who are too eager to dunk on libs to think about it for 5 seconds - a human problem, not an instance one.
Editing to add this link https://hexbear.net/post/353633 Wherein hexbear tells us all their universal safe word, and links to their code of conduct.
Safewords are agreed by participants ahead of time, happening to know their magic word isn't the same thing.
There's a big difference between not bowing to respectability politics and respecting the culture of other instances.
I'd be willing to see if they improve but they've got a fair bit to make up for after that last thread.
The last thread was incredibly toxic thanks to hexbear users. If that is what they do on discussions about them then they are in effect nothing more than trolls. We should Defederate.
I agree with defederation based solely on the fact that nothing can be argued without it developing into an utter shit-fest with them. They only have memes and a spectrum of weird to abhorrent takes politically to give.
What, overall would we be losing vs gaining the ability to use the rest of Lemmy in peace?
This is exactly how I see it
Honestly I find them more toxic than the people over at Lemmygrad and that is by no means a support of those people either, they're both shit.
I've said almost all I care to on this matter except to point out that it has taken less than a day for a Ukrainian war related post to appear on 196 and for hexbear "Marxist Leninists" to start proudly proclaiming their pro Russia opinions. You give these people a platform by staying federated and they will do this, and whether or not you consider their opinions to be offensive is somewhat subjective (I do) they are at the very least a major vibe killer. Anyways, I was right and if this shit keeps popping up in my feed I'm out, peace.
I feel like every time I see a comment from hexbear, it's a tankie with the most insane take possible. I often see them use their emotes/memes not to add to a conversation, but to deflect or avoid directly responding to criticism. I also keep seeing entire comment threads taken over by hexbear as soon as one of them replies to someone. Almost like a bat signal goes out to call in reinforcements. I'm sure that's mostly a product of them being terminally online and not necessarily malicious, but I have to block like ten hexbear users for every one I come across that isn't like that.
It's worth noting that most of the hexbear users I see are under politics stuff posted on large instances like .world and .ml, so these issues may be less prevalent or even non-existent on posts hosted on blahaj.zone. But fuck I really hate the energy they bring on. Honest to god I almost stopped using lemmy altogether because of how bad it gets under most of the posts I come across. I'm sure a lot of hexbear users are fine, but I don't like constantly blocking half of a comment section because the tankies came out of the woodworks to say some dumb shit about Ukraine or whatever. I doubt I'm the only one constantly blocking tankies from hexbear.
I'm mostly posting this to see if others feel the same way or have had similar experiences. I've searched for posts about hexbear a couple times over the past week and haven't seen one until here right now. I'm going through the first post from two days ago and it seems like I might just be coming across a very loud minority from their instance. If that's the case, then defederating seems extreme and unnecessary. But if this is just what most of hexbear is like, I'd prefer to defederate and let the non-tankies make a new account here or on another instance that we federate with.
Update after two days: I'm officially casting my vote as "defederate from hexbear please god," final answer. The tankies and trolls are exhausting and I'm sick and tired of dealing with them. Either they can't be reigned in or they simply aren't. It's not even just their politics. Now that I've been thinking consciously "is this comment's bad politics indicative of the whole instance" I've noticed that a lot of people from hexbear are kind of just assholes. I don't want to deal with them anymore. "The good ones" can make another account here or somewhere that we federate with. But honest to god, most of their instance is a drain on my mental health and I can see that I'm not the only one from blahaj zone that feels that way.
I know they come off as trans-friendly, but they also let tankies run defense for authoritarian countries that don't treat queer people like me well. If hexbear keeps up like this I'm just gonna stop using lemmy altogether. Logging on isn't worth the excruciation of dealing with their instance. I know Ada wants solidarity with other trans-friendly instances, but I don't think the tankies and trolls at hexbear care about that, and I don't think the rest of their instance cares enough to get them to chill out. It feels like they're taking advantage of blahaj zone's charitability to keep vomiting authoritarian apologetics and brigading any comments or posts that call out that behavior. Dealing with that isn't what I signed up for.
In the interest of transparency, this comment was at 38 upvotes when I added this update.
Almost like a bat signal goes out to call in reinforcements. I’m sure that’s mostly a product of them being terminally online and not necessarily malicious
In the case of the last defed thread, it was because someone posted a link to one of my posts in their "dunk on libs with shit takes" community.
That's the issue I raised with their admin. The admin deleted the post in question and made changes to stop it happening again.
Going forward, it's going to come down to this. If they dogpile on any blahaj lemmy community, or any external queer or trans communities frequented by our users and impact the ability of blahaj members to use those spaces, we'll be talking defederation again. I'm hopeful that it won't come to that though
almost stopped using lemmy altogether
I definitely empathize with this
Hexbear is... a lot. It really does feel like they swarmed the last thread. I wish there were a way to lock threads to the local instance.
They seem to really take glee in harassment of "liberals". Their justification of "if we are harassing you you deserve it" doesn't hold a lot of water for me, because they seem to harass anyone who doesn't think the exact same way as them. I certainly get the hostility towards liberals, but while that's all well and good in their little quarantine zone over there now that they're in the larger Threadiverse their whole "dunking on libs" thing just makes lemmy an exhausting place to be.
And then they turn around and mock everyone for being bothered by their hostility. I want to like Hexbear, but I'm not sure whether they're good federationmates.
I hope we don't have to defed, but if Ada decides to it'll certainly be earned.
When I heard that hexbear was a lefty instance that was federating I was initially a bit excited
Then I went to hexbear to check it out and saying it's a lot is an understatement
The one's I've encountered here and only other instances on some of my alt accounts have some pretty shit views in regards to some current events
Their (at least every single one I've encountered) strong stance on letting Ukraine get steam rolled because "No war but class war," is definitely one that rubs me the wrong way. Considering how much that statement used in that regard missing the very idea of defending one's self.
Basically the ones I've encountered are straight up tankies, yeah they seem to support trans rights and other queer folk but it's definitely hard to associate with them when their political views or so shit on other regards.
If we defederated from them I'd support it, though I think that perhaps encountering more people outside of their echo chamber they've been living in for years might dampen some of their shittier views a bit.
But god damn are they fucking hostile to anyone in the out group.
Also the “No war but class war” part means they don't actually support LGBTQ+ people when the chips are down. They will absolutely throw "identity politics" under the bus if it benefits them to do so.
I wish there were a way to lock threads to the local instance.
Might be worth putting this feature in an automod bot in the long term.
I commented before on that thread (before hexbear members got to weigh in) and today I still don't think permanent defederation is warranted.
Hexbear absolutely needs to do better and some of the issue could also be with Lemmy's technical limitations. For example, Hexbear emotes are bugged on other instances and also the fact that hexbear and other instances were able to comment on that thread which muddled the objective of the post. Only blahaj members should have participated and we know that for the better.
Defederation to me means complete erasure of an instance that threatens the integrity of the host. I joined Blahaj to be express my queerness on lemmy and Hexbear isn't taking that away from me. Nor do I believe (imo) there was evidence of that in the 1st thread.
If it's too inconclusive then I'd say not to defederate and instead focus on making sure Lemmy as a whole can be improved for its users.
I'd honestly still prefer defederation. If they were malignant on their own instance that's one thing, but they made this instance feel pretty unwelcome to me, and I've seen way too many red flags to be able to be comfortable having them around. Trans solidarity is no reason to put up with abuse. I know I'm not really an active participant here so this is more or less meaningless to most, but I'd rather leave and go through my transition alone than to stay and have to deal with their terminally online behavior. I don't think it should be our responsibility to rehabilitate them, nor do I think that's possible given the relative size of our instances.
Edit: I also feel it's worth pointing out that they've been defederated from several other instances for malignant behavior and I've seen all of that here.
Edit 2: Just saw we're staying federated with them, so it looks like this is my stop. To all of the fine people here at blåhaj.zone, thanks so much for being a bunch of cool people, I never really chimed in but you all just living your lives helped me figure out a lot of stuff about myself, and I wish you all nothing but the best! I can't stay a member of an instance that welcomes tankies though, so happy trails.
It would be a shame to defederate them. While they can be abrasive and a bit trolly at times, I think they add very diverse opinions and insights compared to the rest of the community. The most thought provoking comments I've read during my time here have come from hexbear users, even if I think it's a nonsensical take it's at least unique to me.
The brigading in the other post probably pissed a bunch of people off, but I couldn't help but find humour in that whole situation. It didn't seem too bad, just mildly annoying. It doesn't feel like it's a widespread enough issue to warrant defederating, but only time will tell I guess.
This was essentially how I felt about them before, I had nearly made the first comment in the original thread to say something like “sometimes annoying but their code of conduct seems pretty compatible” - I don’t agree with the original proposal.
I wasn’t impressed by the response from them, although it did seem to be a few users and I’m not sure if we shouldn’t just write it off to the heat of the moment.
Also one of them in the original thread suggested an interesting history podcast about US imperialism (Blowback), the bashing of which I am totally down with.
I will summarize my views that I left on the first thread:
I will also state that I am biased in my views due to the fact that I am an anarchist who doesn't use the word "tankie", I am very strongly opposed to respectability/civility politics, and I am very careful about SIFTing every bit of news that appears on my feed. For these reasons, my experiences with Hexbear and its users will be markedly different from those with differing views or social media practices, a number of whom report experiencing "harassment, brigading, disinformation, and bad faith arguments". I am sure that these people are being honest, but I can only speak from my own experience.
Lastly, I would like to note that I read that a number of Hexbear users were opposed to federation to begin with, due to the potential disruption this could be for the site's culture, and as Hexbear's culture (e.g. emojis, which improperly scale on other instances) are taken to other sites. It is therefore my conjecture that some fraction of Hexbear users may be intentionally going against their admins' words and being annoying on other instances specifically in order to get Hexbear defederated. I do not fully understand Hexbear's culture or site politics, so I would prefer to hear from Hexbear users on this matter: since this thread is local-only, Hexbear users may wish to send me a DM explaining the controversy on their site regarding federation, and if my conjecture has any merit.
I may edit this comment with other thoughts as they come to me.
Edit: I received this DM from a Hexbear user regarding federation politics on the site. I am sharing this with his permission. I will create an audio version upon request.
Relevant links in the DM:
@JohnBrownsBussy2@hexbear.net also sent me a message reading, "[...] Also, it looks like our admins have posted new rules concerning federated conduct. Some people are being grouchy about it, but I do think moderation is going to improve: https://hexbear.net/post/352119?scrollToComments=false"
I can't think of anything less trans-friendly than mandatory pronoun marking.
I quite liked this quote from Isabel Fall (more about identity than pronouns specifically, but still related!)
“We make boxes that seem to enclose a satisfying number of human experiences, and then we put labels on those and argue about them instead,” she says. “The boxes change over time, according to a process which is governed by, as far as I can tell, cycles of human suffering: We realize that forcing people into the last set of boxes was painful and wrong, we wring our hands, we fold up some new boxes and assure ourselves that this time we got it right, or at least right enough for now. Because we need the boxes to argue over. I do not want to be in a box. I want to sift through your fingers, to vanish, to be unseen.”
They basically just make it required so you can't tell who is trans, and the trans users support it so I don't really have an issue with it.
I essentially agree with the quote, but I can think of plenty of things that are less trans friendly than a digital pronoun circle. My point is that there is a very large trans population on Hexbear, and we can only assume that the trans population there are also universally the types of trans people who are open to sharing their pronouns publicly anyways — or else they would most likely just join a different instance without that requirement.
I think mandatory pronoun marking is a bad thing in IRL spaces, but in online spaces it's probably less of a big deal, especially when neopronouns or even None is an acceptable answer.
I agree with almost everything you said here, even though I don’t participate in any of the communities on that instance I would probably start looking for another instance to use if we go through with defederation. I’d like to be able to participate in discussion with queer folk and other leftists (including those that I have differing opinions from) across all of lemmy because to me that’s the value of using a federated platform in the first place.
I’d also like to note that I’m not a “tankie” or a ML for the sake of clarity, but I do value left unity because none of these reductive arguments over international politics actually matter when you’re doing real work and helping others, which is what this is all about in the first place.
I think they need to be defederated. Many users over there seem to be very edgy and tankie. I also saw too many very upvoted posts from this instance with bad faith arguments, idiotic takes and strawmen, with lots of users supporting this crap
I've never heard of them until now, but nothing I'm seeing makes me feel like I'd miss anything if blahaj defederated from them.
Straight up I've blocked more people from hexbear than anywhere else
At this point I'm looking forward to defederating from them due to how toxic they are
I hadn't noticed an issue with hexbear until the recent post. They definitely gave me a bad impression of their whole instance with their behavior.
I definitely think defederation is in order. Unless I'm mistaken, the most their admins have done to stop the brigading has been a comment on the post saying to stop interacting. No post on hexbear, nothing.
They seem like a bunch of shitty trolls. Acceptance of trans people aside, there's not really a reason to continue to federate with an instance like that.
EDIT: they just added to their code of conduct disallowing the kind of behavior we saw yesterday. Still unsure if remaining federated is a good idea
Being completely honest here, I don't think we should defederate from them. I don't see a point why. They are clearly pro-LGBTQ+, have huge support to our fellow trans brethren.
It also rubs me wrong in every single way to outright scrutinize one of the oldest still active Lemmy Instances, we all have to clearly remember which folks precursor the majority of us. Those being the left wing folks, we should respect their space and we respect theirs, otherwise it will be like mocking them to their faces. I have seen it with many others users treating them like garbage, how about we don't? It is like inviting guests to your house and them stealing that home and turning it the way they want, and when you complain they start spurting crap about you being horrible, etc, etc.
I have said this one, and I will say this again;
For fuck's sake keep your mouth shut, and move on(This doesn't apply to fascists/conservatives). (This comment is not meant to come as rude, I am just stating my honest opinion.)
Why would anybody thank them for doing nothing but spam propaganda and huge emojis and brigading? Absolutely delusional. The instance I'm from defederated from them and it's been a night and day difference. You guys should do the same.
My opinion is please defederate, thank you
I personally have just been blocking any of their communities that pop up because I am not a fan of how they handle themselves.
I believe in blahaj-hexbear unity and I think we should all hug
Putting this down as it may be relevant. It was posted very recently:
I edited my post to mention this. I think it's notable that the current top comment over there is:
Every instance that has talked shit and got dogpiled should be thanking us for breathing some life into their dead and boring ass websites.
"Enjoy our abuse, it's good for you."
Yeah I'd say that's a shitty take seeing so much support over there
Edit: And this response from one of their admins about dunking on people being the point of federating in the first place is pretty damning.
Every instance that has talked shit and got dogpiled should be thanking us for breathing some life into their dead and boring ass websites.
Flinging stupid shit around isn't breathing life into our "boring" website. I find being a Putin puppet way more boring quite frankly.
