this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2023
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Most of our ongoing disagreements are predicated an underlying problem that's eloquently explained in Tucker Carlson's interview of Vivek Ramaswamy starting at 33:53 and going through the end of the video, so ~11 minutes long. I'm curious to hear your perspective on that.
I see why you say that, but Christians are entitled to a word describing the phenomenon of declining Christianity, and the word "secularism" has been used for decades if not centuries to describe that. If you're aware of a more appropriate word, I'm all ears.
Again, I make the choice to be a Christian on an ongoing basis. Every time I look to Christ for guidance, every time I follow Christ, every time I repent, etc., is a choice. I choose to be a Christian repeatedly every single day. The Devil continually tempts me to stray, and every time I choose God. It's a choice, through and through.
The foundation of Western civilization is not, and cannot, be infested with termites, because the foundation of Western civilization is the Lord our God. There's nothing you can say to legitimately criticize God. God is not a problem to be fixed. So I'm sorry if I twisted your "try to salvage the house, or replace it if necessary" with "burn the house down", but no house could possibly be better (in any way) than the house of the Lord our God. Your entire line of thinking is rooted in your denial of God, which is the sin of sins.
I don't know if anyone ever actually believed in Zeus, but the concept is 100% incomparable to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is real and present today as He ever was. God doesn't exist to provide answers to mysteries. We exist because He exists. If we don't know how something works, of course we can ascribe the answer to God, and that answer is always correct. What's crucial to understand is that it remains correct once science discovers the method by which God works. Lightning is a great example. It's created by God to work in a certain way, and we've deduced the mechanism by which it happens.
If you're right that some people only see God as a useful crutch to blame things on, then that's reasonable. But it misses the vast all-encompassing nature of God's glory, so it doesn't seem like a very compelling answer.
The most intelligent scientists all believe in God. Einstein is the most notable example. Science is the practice of using our God-given abilities to observe and describe the mechanisms of God's creation. Science is in every way predicated upon God.
I don't. Back when I played regularly, I didn't care about such formalities. I would now if I picked it back up.
Ramaswamy's response to the pansexual women is about as out of touch as one can get. Him saying that the LGBTQ+ is a bunch of groups is just a thinly veiled effort to weaken the power of the LGBTQ+ through propoganda. He wants to act like republicans are the victims when the LGBTQ+ receive death threats and attacks on a routine basis. He also just straight up doesn't understand much about the LGBTQ+. Basically the whole thing he uses nonstop strawman fallacies. He has a fundamental lack of understanding of everything he criticized through the whole thing. And in the end it's culture war bullshit.
"The decline of christianity"
Even if we have free will that isn't an instance of you changing your mind of your own free will. These things you list are just examples of you performing actions that are in line with your beliefs.
I disagree that the foundation of western civ is solely placed on god. There are a lot more things that go into it than that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Western_civilization
If you're going to look through this, I recommend spending extra time on the section explaining the enlightenment.
Sure I can, god, according to your worldview, created a world in which children get cancer. I can conceptualize a world in which that does not happen, and therefore a failure of god. And before you say I think I know better than god, in reality I know better than the humans who made god up.
That's a terrible thing to do because it is a form of lying to yourself. In the end it wasn't Zeus who causes lightning, it is a build up of a difference in energy between clouds and the ground. Answering "god" in that context was wrong. We shouldn't just blame a mystery on a bigger mystery.
No part of the explanation for how lightning works involves god.
People prefer real answers rather than ones that just blame a bigger mystery.
Not only is that not true (because you added the "most intelligent" qualifier), but given that scientific literacy is correlated with atheism, I find it to be rather damning for religion:
https://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2009/11/Scientists-and-Belief-1.gif
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/
If god really is the answer for everything all around us we would expect those who understand the universe better than the average population to understand god better than the average population. Yet we see the opposite.
He was a really weird deist, not a christian. And he was from a time when it was far less socially acceptable to be an atheist. So that's not really much of an argument.
Go for it! It's pretty easy to play against others nowadays now that there are so many popular chess sites. chess.com and lichess are pretty decent.
I wasn't referring to that in particular. I was referring to the big-picture point he made in the whole last 11 minutes of the video. The point was about western civilization, the insidious project to undermine it, and our duty to defend it. That point is foundational to much of our disagreement. It sounds like you stopped watching before he even got to the point.
Yeah, but that misses the bigger picture. It's not as if people are rejecting Christ and converting to Judaism. Rather it's a secular movement driven by Satan's success at convincing a vast swath of the populace that God is imaginary.
This is one of those ways in which Wikipedia tends to be secular. It says in the intro that Western civilization is "linked" to Christiandom. That's misleading. Western civilization is Christiandom. The only difference is we don't call it that anymore. But everything that followed from Christiandom is built upon Christiandom as an extension of Christiandom. Though to the article's credit, it does later state that:
That's close to accurate. In truth the two are inseparably identical, which is why Satan hates Western civilization, that that in turn is why you've been convinced to believe you want to contribute to the project of undermining Western civilization.
I'm not sure exactly what points you're referring to here. Skimming through it, I'm pretty sure I already know all of these details. The only change I'd make is to emphasize God's role in all of these things, and His importance to all of these historical figures.
It is the height of hubris to criticize God. His wisdom is infinite, and if yours was too then you'd understand why certain children are given cancer. It's not for us to try to understand. It's for us to accept in our worship and prayer.
At some point, immanently I hope, you'll realize how absurdly wrong you are about this. You have demons whispering lies into your ears, and you believe them unquestioningly. I know they make it feel good when you believe them, but they're lying to you.
Comparing Zeus to God is far worse than apples and oranges, because at least apples and oranges are both fruits. It's like comparing icebergs to smartphones. They have absolutely nothing whatsoever in common, to the point that it's nonsensical to even try to compare them.
Let's say you were to throw a basketball, and make a basket. Some scientists observe it, and say "That's interesting. Let's figure out what that's all about." So they observe you throwing the basketball. They measure your movements, the wind movements, the ball's PSI, the height of the basket, the material compositions of the ball and basket, just all of it. And then they formulate a theory which postulates how the ball goes through the basket. And then people start to deny that you exist because they have the theory of how the basketball goes through the basket. The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous. God is in control, no matter what your demons tell you.
First off, it's self-evidently true, as anyone who denies God cannot be said to be very intelligent. I'm trying to word that so as not to offend you, and it's hard. Sorry. My point here is not to insult you, but just to explain my statement about the most intelligent scientists.
Secondly, the scientific disciplines are certainly attractive to atheists who want to devote their lives to pretending that they're disproving God by collecting the evidence of the basketball. So yes, atheists are more likely to become scientists than pastors. We don't need to consult any studies to know that's true.
Maybe eventually, but not today. I have too much else on my plate. But thank you for letting me know it's easy to play online. That's something I hadn't considered.
I am aware that isn't the focus that you had in mind, but it was one of the bigger reactions I had to it. My overall view is that he is deeply out of touch and incapable of using anything other than a strawman argument. He fundamentally does not understand what he is criticizing.
That's not what "The decline in chrstianity" describes.
That's just not happening.
No it's not. Western civ is a pretty arbitrary phrase that is used in a million different ways, and christianity is only a subset of that. Words and phrases change over time, and this is one of those things that has changed.
There is no such project, at least how I define western civilization.
If you're aware of all the details then you should also be aware that the enlightment (a huge part of western civilization) was the birth of science, the scientific method, and secularism. Meaning christendom != western civ.
I am criticizing a fictional, human made character. As a result of being human made, there is no such infinite wisdom.
There is no good reason.
How have you determined that you aren't worshiping an evil god if you haven't questioned god? How do you know that it isn't the case that both god and satan are evil?
Nobody is whispering anything in my ears, metephorically or literally, whichever way you mean. And I question everything before I believe it.
Both Yahweh and Zeus are fictional characters which people irrationally use to explain why things work. That was the basis for my comparison and therefore makes it a valid comparison.
That's not really how that works.
That's not true.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
That is absolutely not why people do science. They do so because they want to learn more about the universe, do some good for humanity and advance it. Do you even know a single scientist?
Imagine for once that you are completely wrong about this belief of yours. Yes, it's the height of hubris. If we know nothing else, we know at very least that our Creator lives.
Psalm 100:5:
To choose just one of many possible answers.
I mean literally. You may look at your shoulder, expecting to see no demon, while maybe picturing the cutesy BSD mascot, and sure enough you don't see one sitting on your shoulder. "See?" you reassure yourself, "no demon." You then recall that you've never seen the BSD mascot running around anywhere IRL, and conclude that demons must not exist.
How sure are you that you do a good job questioning everything before you believe it? Is it possible that you've made an error?
Demons do not look like cutesy cartoon characters, and indeed they're not visible to the human eye (at least not to mine). As with all extant spiritual entities, we can know they exist despite our inability to see them.
Are you just as quick to deny that dark matter exists?
You said you were willing to question your beliefs, so I urge you to question this. I think it underlies the rift between us.
You want to see yourself as a reasonably intelligent person, and you want to cling to a state of mind which you believe to be shared by other intelligent people.
But I ask you, are you so sure that it's intelligent to reject God? Consider the following:
According to Pew, actively religious people tend to be far happier. Is it intelligent to want to be happy? Could this effect possibly be a quantitative measurement of God's blessings? And is it intelligent to want to be happy?
Again, I ask you: is it intelligent to want to be happy?
So you just don't question whether or not god is good or evil, have I understood correctly? If so, then you have no method of determining if you are worshiping an evil being. That should immediately alarm you if you have any goodness in you.
Like I said earlier, whichever way you mean, nobody is whispering anything in my ears.
It highly depends on the matter at hand. The ridiculousness of a claim is tied to how much I look into something before believing it. If my friend tells me they got a new dog, I'll probably believe them simply because my trust in them is sufficient for an ubiquitous claim such as that. If they tell me they bought a ferrari, I'd be a little more inquisitive and ask for pictures. If they tell me they bought a dragon, nothing short of seeing it in person will convince me because my understanding of the world is such that dragons do not exist. For a claim as ridiculous as that I would need very strong evidence.
Holding belief until you have sufficient evidence is what you do to avoid errors. I'm not perfect, there are certainly things I am wrong about. But to the best of my ability to understand, this is not something I am wrong about.
We have pretty strong evidence to suggest that dark matter exists.
Sure, but lying to yourself will never make you happy. You're asking me to lie to myself.
Nobody has the rightful authority to question the word of God. I quoted a verse from the Bible to you. We accept God's word without question because we are His humble servants. It would be arrogant to suppose we have permission to question His word, and it would be evil for us to desire to question His word. When you are presented with a Bible quote, you accept it as true and holy. When a demon tells you to question it, or claims that it's false, you repent and ask Jesus to shield you from this demonic temptation. In the end, we must always conclude that the word of God is correct.
And yet you continue to demonstrate clear evidence to the contrary. If you're not plagued by demons then show me your embrace of God.
You put understanding before faith. That's backwards. I assure you, this is something you are wrong about.
True, but we have a thousand times more evidence to confirm that God exists. Evidence to which you are blind.
If (A) I was asking you to lie to yourself, and (B) lying to yourself will never make you happy, then (C) actively religious people cannot be happier than irreligious people.
This is basic logic:
A ∧ B ∴ CAnd yet (C) is demonstrably false, an assertion which I substantiated with hard data. And that was just one survey. Survey after survey repeatedly demonstrates that actively religious people are far happier.
I'll reply to some of the various other things you wrote, but this is the heart of our discussion. The crux, if you will. Your perspective is that you're too smart to believe in God, and you refuse to acknowledge that God blesses His faithful believers with happiness. You believe that intelligent people choose unhappiness despite the obvious fact that it would be rather unwise to intentionally choose unhappiness, by virtue of the very definition of happiness. The only possible explanation for your insistent rejection of God is your unknowing loyalty to Satan, who has successfully convinced you that not even he exists.
Then like I said earlier, you have no method to determine what you worship is a good being. That should terrify you if you are a good person and immediately make you second guess everything.
This is a false dichotomy.
Nope, it's the correct way around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
If you think you have evidence that I haven't seen before I am all ears.
This argument is based on the false premise that religious people would see their religion as a lie. I'm an atheist, so if I were to embrace christianity I would see it as a lie.
Nope. I have no evidence for it, so I do not believe it. It has nothing to do with my intelligence.
Once again, belief is not a choice.
And correlation does not imply causation, therefore you cannot rationally say that being religious makes you more happy.
No, the actual explanation is my responses above. And this is also a fallacy:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Holmesian_fallacy
I quoted the true word of God — the holy Bible. When you parrot your demons who claim it's false, you reveal your foolish allegiance, but still you must know deep in your heart that God is good.
I'm not trying to prove anything here. If you think I am, I have to wonder what led you to think that.
My primary goal here should be readily obvious: Matthew 28:19–20, the Great Commission. I am planting a seed, and praying your soil is fertile.
Your primary goal here, by contrast, is laid out in Romans 1:18-32. I pray your disposition is temporary and reversible.
You're fully immersed in it. But until you establish a penitent relationship with God, you are blind.
If you're honestly not trying to prove how clever you are, then submit to God in faith, and the copious evidence can then be revealed to you.
No matter how much you insist upon that, I repeatedly choose to believe in the Lord our God. I accept that you don't yet understand how belief can be a choice, but it most certainly is.
I have zero doubt that the cause of happiness is God's blessing. Joy is quintessentially Christian.
That's a circular argument. If the devil had a holy book you'd see the same thing about how the devil is the good guy.
I do not think that. I linked it because it is the golden standard for belief, and it requires evidence before belief.
I've been having these sorts of conversations with christians for over a decade. If christians had anything convincing to say, I think I would have heard it by now.
it's not. I'm honestly just talking with you for the sake of enjoyment at this point.
The "look at the trees" argument is an invalid one.
Nope, evidence must come before belief, and belief is not a direct choice.
Do you not see how ridiculous this argument is? Of course the Devil lies, but the difference between God and Satan is under most circumstances glaringly obvious.
The golden standard for belief is a mustard seed.
And who do you think has been motivating you to do that? Time and again, it is the Holy Spirit who moves you. God loves you despite your continued rejection of Him. Yet every time you receive another opportunity to drink of His water, you instead choose to follow your demons.
I'm guessing you didn't actually read Romans 1:18-32. Please do. If you can be honest with yourself, you'll find it all too familiar. What you call "the sake of enjoyment" is described.
Faith exists only because belief is a direct choice. Surely you don't deny the existence of faith.
So then if you understand that there is a chance that what your reading is lies, then why don't you put any effort into determining if what you are reading is lies?
That parable says nothing about it being the gold standard.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
None of this is true. My motivations are my own.
Like I said in the other thread, I don't derive any value from bible verses.
For the sake of experiment, choose to believe that the moon is made of cheese then. You can't do it, because you know better.
Depends what you mean by "faith".
If you're talking about blind faith, then it exists as much as any other concept can, and it is almost by definition an error.
If by faith you mean trust, then in the same way it exists. But even that is based on information you hold to believe as true, which is not something that is under anybody's direct control.