this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2024
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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
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I guess I have trouble groking the difference between "liberal" and "leftist".
Could someone summarize?
Leftists HATE capitalism. They want to replace it altogether with some alternative economic system (market socialism, planned economy or a combination of the two) depending upon the type of leftist. Differences in leftists also exist based on the HOW of replacing capitalism (violent revolution, democratic reformation and so on).
Liberals ARE NOT leftists. Liberals believe that capitalism, with all its flaws is still the least bad economic system. They recognise some flaws of the free market and think that capitalism must be regulated to a certain extent by the government.
So again, all leftists HATE capitalism. Liberals dislike a free market, but think that regulated capitalism is the least bad form of governance.
Note: I know you didn't ask this, but just wanted to clarify - capitalism ≠ market. There's a large group of leftists called "market socialists" who want a market without the means of production owned privately.
That's kinda iffy. Liberals are still on the left, why should leftist be delegated only to democracy haters? It's basically making a special definition that isn't used on any common level
That's a horrible misunderstanding of liberalism and leftism. Socialism is more democratic than Capitalism because it extends democratic control to production itself.
Ronald Reagan was a neo liberal. Would you consider him a leftist?
Also, leftists are not democracy haters. Different groups of leftists have different stances on democracy. Anarchists for example, hate the idea of a state altogether (doesn't matter if it's democratic or not). Market socialists want to expand democracy in the economic sphere as well, with the help of cooperatives (be it worker, consumer, hybrid and so on).
Marxist Leninists are a group of leftists that you could say are anti democracy (in the context that you are referring to). MLs believe that a revolution must be led by a vanguard party, i.e., a group of intellectuals, and smart people who truly understand Marxist theory. This vanguard party would form a state, create material conditions for democracy (educate the uneducated, or people brainwashed by capitalists). After the material conditions are created, you can achieve democracy and all associated nice things. Remember, this is in the context of violent revolutions, like the ones that took place in Russia, China, Vietnam, Cuba and so on.
NOW, I am NOT a Marxist Leninist. I do not condone their ideas. I will not expand upon my own ideas, as that goes beyond the scope of this discussion. The point is, not all leftists are anti-democracy. Most leftists active politically at least in the west are incredibly pro-democracy, want to expand democracy or are anti state altogether (democratic or otherwise).
A bit of a correction regarding Marxist-Leninists: they support democracy the whole way through, not just after the entire economy has been folded into the public sector and thus classes and therefore the State cease to exist. A good article on the subject of AES and Democracy is Why Do Marxists Fail to Bring the "Worker's Paradise?"
I have a "Read Theory, Darn it!" introduction to Marxism-Leninism post if you want to glance over it, questions on democratic structures and how to achieve them are answered.