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this post was submitted on 12 Nov 2023
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The total war tactics of WW2 are unthinkable by modern standards, but it’s hard not to sympathize with an outgunned army fighting for their home. They fight because they’d rather die than lose.
Maybe instead of fighting people in that position, you talk to them and work out a peace deal. If they’re willing to be reasonable, end the violence.
they've shown time and time again, through actions and words, that they are not
Exactly. Netanyahu and his gang of corrupt zealots can't be reasoned with.
A total war is when you utalize all of a societies resources for war. That's essentially what Hamas is doing, they have been syphoning the tiny economic capability the Gaza Strip had to arm themselves and are not hesitant to employ every available human being as a fighter or as a shield. Hamas also is in favour of Palestinian civilians dying,
The time to facilitate a peaceful solution was decades ago but the Israeli government missed that opportunity for selfish reasons. Now there is a conflict with no good solution available for Israel.
There is, but it'd require gasp giving up on their expansionist ambitions, and the only one willing to do that was Rabin, who got assassinated for it.
They should but that would only help with the west bank. As long Hamas is there, there is a security threat and Hamas can hide behind civilians. But even if Israel dismantles the current Hamas structures, in a few years they or something similar will be back.
There are 2 million people in Gaza and no perspective for any improvement of their situation. Gaza is economically viable on it's own. But neither Egypt nor Israel wants to incorporate Gaza and it's inhabitants into their states.
If the Israeli occupation of Palestine stops, Hamas will either disappear on its own, mellow out into a normal government or become just another terrorist organization like the IRA in Ireland. That's usually how it goes.
How long will the mellowing out take and how many Israeli civilians will die during that? Half of the people in Gaza were born after Hamas came into power.
Ireland is a viable economy on it's own. The average education level in Gaza is abysmal, there are no resources, little farmable land,... There is no perceivable way for Gaza to function as a independent part of Palestine independent of either Israel or Egypt. So what's the plan here?
Egypt wants nothing to do with Gaza anymore. I don't think anyone in Israel would support incorporating Gaza into Israel and grant citizenship to it's inhabitants.
Just closing the border and largely keeping out there is what Israel did the last two decades and that is exactly what ended up in an unprecedented terror attack on Israeli civilians.
I mean we can look at the Irish government for inspiration. When you sign a treaty to end a century conflict you tend to be pressured by your people to keep it.
The Gazan economy used to mainly rely on cash crop exports, but we all know what happened there.
Just closing the border? At this point I find it hard to believe you're discussing this in good faith, but anyway no, that's not what Israel is doing. Gaza is subject to a land, air and sea blockade that makes it so, in short, Gaza isn't allowed to have any contact with the outside world unless Israel approves it. That's not keeping out what is there, that's a military occupation.
If Israel continues to treat the Palestinians as they have historically done so, it's likely there will always be a Hamas or their equivalent.
Do you think that Hamas will negotiate a peace deal in good faith?
Do you think Israel will?
Yes.
Hamas attacked on October 7th. Not the other way around.
Didn't happen in a vacuum though, did it.
Do not confuse me saying that with sympathising with Hamas. It is possible to recognise that both sides have bloody hands, and have done for decades.
Can you explain what you mean by "Didn’t happen in a vacuum"?
Best I can figure is that you disagree with the act itself, but agree with their motives or desires. But I really don't want to assume, and would prefer to understand from you.
If I keep poking you in the eye for decades, wouldn't you eventually get tired of it and punch me in the face?
Except in this case "poking you in the eye" is killing people, including old and young, journalists and doctors, poets and farmers, cutting off food, water, and electricity, displacing millions, invading homes, destroying farms and infrastructure, and restricting freedom of movement.
What about when the Palestinians tried to overthrow the Jordanian government, and when they successfully did it to Lebanon?
Both sides have been punching each other. There needs to be an independent party here, like a two state solution. Guess which side rejected that though?
Israel? I wrote a big-ass comment talking about this before so I'll just copy and paste from it.
Oslo accords: Negotiations were progressing until Rabin got fucking assassinated by a Zionist terrorist, at a time where the Israeli right was actively calling for his assassination. Netanyahu, who came in his place, called the whole thing off.
Camp David: The then-Israeli foreign affairs minister stated he wouldn't have accepted the offer if he were in Arafat's place. The Israeli offer was that bad, and they weren't willing to compromise.
The 2008 Olmert offer was mostly behind closed doors so nobody actually knows what was going on (both sides blame each others for not following up on negotiations), but from what we do know the offer included keeping an unacceptably large part of the West Bank (about 10% by the Palestinian calculation).
2014 offer: The American envoy stated that the blame for the failure of the negotiations (not an offer, since Israel didn't actually offer anything) lied squarely on Israel, and specifically Netenyahu. That's how uncooperative Israel was.
And that should be all peace negotiations with Israel since the Oslo accords. The idea that Palestinians rejected peace is pure Israeli propaganda.
Israel attacked, at a minimum, 17 years ago.
Blockading a country is an act of war.