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this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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Autism
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I can’t be the only one tired of the whole, “neurodivergent” crap.
I have ADHD, it’s a disability. I’m not **special**, I’m just fucking broken. Sure, it’s a more depressing take, but it’s more realistic.
Personally I find this form of thinking far more dangerous: I come from a country in which being "mentally disabled" would literally mean me being unable to function in polite society, and being a "retard" is something pretty common, even with adults. The fact I was undiagnosed autistic until I left saved me. Sure you don't function like everyone else, and yeah, it's hard - trust me -, but to say you're broken is basically undermining everyone else that has the same condition as you.
anyone who is willing to seek help has to pay the consequences
I can see how that can be true in your circumstances. But, in a society where resources are available to you, the social model often leads people to turn down medications and accommodations, because the need and use of them seems unfair. (General “you” use ahead) And that only makes your life worse, given that you don’t live in that ideal society you built in your head.
First off those people don't actually understand the social model of disability. The whole point is society makes it harder to get along because of disability or difference and the lack of acceptance and accomodation. If that same society offers aid you should generally take it. At least that's my understanding.
You are also starting with the assumption that there is actually help for adults with disabilities like autism and ADHD. The truth is there isn't that help available in many societies. Calling yourself "broken" isn't going to change that fact.
Neurodivergent is a middle ground. Our wiring is abnormal in some (or many) ways.
We are broken in the same way a tank is a really shitty car. If all you do is drive the roads, it will seem that way. However, it can go places that a car simply can't. Critically, this doesn't make it any less shitty on the roads. Nore let you suddenly become a car. You're a tank, and stuck as one.
This is different to being broken however. We are forced to adapt to our unusual brain wiring. Some people unfortunately can't. Others can mask, but find it exhausting.
I'm personally reasonably lucky. I have ADHD and autism. My life was pretty shitty till I learnt not to follow the expectations of others. I now have a family, an interesting job, and hobbies I enjoy. My life is still far from perfect, but it's not broken, it just felt that way.
Just because something is a disability doesn't mean you can't call it neurodivergent. It's just a broader term that means that you're different.
ADHD isn't a disability for everyone. Plenty of people function fine with it.
Just to be clear, something is called a disorder when it affects your ability to do everyday things.
Hey. Pretty sure I have undiagnosed ADHD (literally sitting in waiting room to talk to a therapist as I write this), and I feel like there's a bit more than just being broken. We're only "broken" because we don't conform to the currently agreed upon norms. The world isn't designed for us. And the quicker we can realize that and make personal and societal adaptations to make these "breaks" more standard, well, we'll all be better off.
How’d the appointment go?
Went well, mostly intake stuff. Got another in 2 weeks .
Hello, random Lemmitor! Have you downvoted the comment from Ookami38 because you feel it isn't true? You know nothing about the life experience of the user who wrote it, so you're using your limited, finite knowledge to invalidate someone else's perspective. Before you jump into concluding that people who use the term neurodivergency to refer to themselves to cope, have you stopped to consider if your irrational rejection of the possibility that a neurodivergent person feeling fine about their condition or who they are is not your own mechanism to cope?
I... Why am I called out in that post? Like legit confused, I've been disconnected since I posted it so was I like, massively downvoted or something? Regardless yeah, I agree with what youre saying, for the most part.
Dude, most of the comments are trying to be supportive of this guy. I'm pretty sure we've all felt broken when we were diagnosed. I thought I was unlovable and would never have friendships or a partner, and eight years later I just celebrated my five year anniversary. Shit gets better, but not if you stay on the cycle of thinking you're just broken and it will always stay like that. Whether you want to believe that or not, that's your prerogative.
I would like to clarify, that despite feeling broken, I do see the hope in medication, knowledge and understanding, and coping mechanisms. Not to mention a loving and supporting wife, who also has her own issues… but we work out to about 1.5 fully functioning adults together, so that’s nice.
Viewing ADHD and other disorders purely by the social model, at least as I hear many talk about it, completely disregards any need for medication and accommodation, and just puts the emphasis on society to change. And I think that’s just wrong, like, I understand the idea of the social model, but people take it too far. Use it as an aspirational guide to a better society, don’t dismiss the aides that help people function in today’s society because you feel they shouldnt be needed in the first place.
My issue is how some people put so much emphasis on societal changes and ideas like “I’m not broken, society is”. Then they just live without any personal adaptations (medications, coping mechanisms, etc) bc “I’m not broken”. Worse, some look down at those who do take medications and try to adapt to the realities of our current society.
You can take some personal responsibility while also acknowledging that at least the majority of the reason this is even an issue is due to external things, i.e. societal expectations.
This. It’s not a pity party, but it is a justification for medication, and for giving a little bit of understanding.
I really relate to your comment, and one of the most rage inducing experiences I've ever had was someone lecturing me on how I shouldn't call myself disabled, and then they badly explained the social model of disability to me.
However, I also find neurodivergent a useful term because I think that what we understand as disability is limited by our current world view. An example that feels analogous to me is how colonialist empires dismissed the art, culture and knowledge of indigenous peoples because they projected their preconceived values onto them.
I think that there's a lot we don't understand about autism, and how heavily normative society is holds us back. There are things that I am great at that feel inextricably linked to my autism. That doesn't negate all the difficulties I also experience, but the word "neurodivergent" and the conversations that have developed around it feel it carves out space where I can lean into my autistic traits in situations where they're strengths without having to be "super-autistic"; but also I can struggle in ways that neurotypical people can't fathom, and it isn't viewed as "negating" my strengths.
A large part of this is because the first chunk of my adult life, I broke myself by trying to act overly neurotypical, and like many autistics, I found that masking to this degree was unsustainable. Now, I'm much closer to a balance where I can pick my battles and not force myself to be something I'm not - like having tinted glasses for the office instead of expecting myself to somehow cope with my light hypersensitivity. In many ways, it feels like a different mode of being altogether - "wellness" for me looks different to "wellness" to a neurotypical, and I'd wager that "wellness" for you and other people in this thread would look closer to my version than the neurotypical version.
That being said, I agree that the way that people talk about stuff like ADHD and autism feels icky as hell. Personally, I find it more depressing to pretend that I'm not disabled, because actually, ignorance isn't bliss when I can't run from my reality. Sometimes things just suck, and they're hard, and pretending otherwise makes it harder to cope with because it's implicitly saying "I'm lying to myself because the truth is untenable".
Thanks, yeah, you did a great job of putting it more eloquently than I had. 100% agree.
Same with me, but I don't have ADHD but depression. I know I'm not normal and it's not okay to be like me, guess what, telling me that in fact is ok to be a mental fucking mess doesn't make it better.
🤷 It's about the social model of disability. It's certainly incomplete, but it's not wrong.
that is literally every human on this planet. just because someone doesn't have a mental divergence from perceived norm doesn't mean they aren't broken.
I disagree, we’re all different, but “disorder starts at impairment” and impairments come in various degrees.
To think of it this way, seems to say that “we all struggle” and the very next thought for many would be “why do you need and get medication/accommodation?” Or maybe the inverse “why don’t I get…?”
I guess there’s an argument to be had there, especially with the second form of the question.
A bit of an asshole, medication Bit boring, medication Don’t run fast, prosthetic Kinda ugly, surgery Short, surgery
Yeah and there are high suicide rates among neurodivergent people, including people with autism having a 9x higher chance of dying by suicide.
Can you get me a # on chance of a neurodivergent person becoming a famous inventor, artists, etc?
It wasn’t my mom, dad, sister, nor me so far. But hey, at least none of us have killed ourselves. So that’s nice.
I blogged, late at night… And wanted a unique username even if not completely accurate
You could say the same thing about trans people but you wouldn't call that "being broken".
Why wouldn’t I?
Because it's incredibly transphobic? Can you not understand how an oppressed group might be more depressed or suicidal while still not being inherently wrong or broken because of how society treats them?
I kind of get you have frustrations with the social model of disability because of how some people use it. You maybe need to look into things like the holistic model of disability. That's all fairly reasonable until now. Your last comment I am replying to is taking the piss. It reeks of not understanding how privilege and oppression in general works as well as transphobia specifically.
Well, Tbf I do see the obvious correlation between oppression and depression. So that was a poor choice of fact to try to demonstrate any point.
And maybe I’m kinda “taking a piss” with the last comment, because I leave it to be interpreted widely.
Disability and disorder are clearly complex topics, but I also think I can believe that ADHD and Transexuality are flaws in the human genome, and I feel I can hold that thought without being transphobic. We’re all still people, living the lives we were given, trying to make the most of it.
Where accommodations can exist, they should, we should allow people to transition sex, and augment their brain with drugs in order to live a life they feel happier about.
The social cost for accommodating trans is simply recognizing peoples preferred pronouns, and not being hateful or doing anything to impede their life.
To accommodate ADHD is to re-architect much of society altogether. Conversation norms, collaboration expectations, methods of instruction/education, public transit needing to be much better (cuz ADHDers are much more likely to get into crashes and many shouldn’t drive un-medicated) etc etc etc
So in that regard I guess I’d say that while I see both as broken, or at least disfuntional, though ADHD much more so socially, and trans more individually impeded (as of yet, no natural conception, must take hormone supplements, etc).
Trust that I at very least have a lifetime, well part of one, of experience with oppression and lack of privilege as the only people with a “heritage” but not a race to our own (in the US) and as a person w ADHD, and as lower class.
I could probably do with some more theoretical knowledge on the topic though. I’ll look into the holistic model.
-written on my phone bc I can’t be bothered to grab my laptop, but also this makes it harder to proofread, re-read context, and generally form responses at the best of my capabilities. This and many responses may or may not come from a medicated version of me, and as a result may have significantly more or less care put into their crafting. And idk, other ADHD related disclaimers. Accommodate me, bitch. Jk, kinda.
I don't which reality you are from but I don't think society or many of the neurotypicals that inhabit it are actually functional in the reality I come from. To me the whole system is broken to varying degrees for everyone and is perpetuated by broken people. I know you have said before that you don't think NTs are broken, I disagree. I think anyone who is complicit in our current world must be broken in some sense. We only accept the sometimes rather transparent flaws of NT people only because they are the majority.
Lots of accomodations that help ND people would also help some or all NTs as well. It's the same as how adding lifts and ramps for disabled people also helps the elderly, or people who are moving goods on a trolley. NT people have off days too and I think they could use some leniancy. I also think that rather than try to create one method of education and socialising that works for everyone we should have different options available for different people. We should meet people where they are rather than trying to build a compromised system and bend people to fit that system. This is why I believe we should have a neurodivergent culture/subculture like we have for LGBTQ+ people with things like gay bars. I wouldn't even be against setting up entire societies or countries for various oppressed groups including the neurodivergent, LGBTQ, and physically disabled the same way we setup Israel for Jews (only this time without committing genocide against Palestine). Unfortunately society just isn't setup that way under Kyriarchy.
As for medication: ADHD drugs are essentially performance enhancers. I am a druggie at heart so I have no issue with people NT or ND doing drugs to increase their performance or for recreation. I do have a problem with people being coerced into doing drugs just because it makes them behave more like an average or "normal" person.
I can understand and agree with everything you said, to varying degrees, especially as I see the bigger world-view of it... up until
I know you're not saying every person who takes drugs does so because they were coerced, or because they are trying to be 'normal', but it is how I first read it... and it is how many of those with similar views to yours feel. Which kind ties back to a comment I made elsewhere in this post a couple of days ago, that the "ND people are just different" ideology frequently comes bundled with a negative view of those of us who do want to take drugs and do things to be more functional.
You may think the world needs to change, but without my meds I can sit here feeling like a lazy asshole for not helping my wife clean, while still feeling utterly unable to will myself to get up and help. I'm not always that way without medication, but with medication, I spent this morning having interesting conversations on Lemmy, taking periodic breaks to clean up the apartment bit by bit before my wife even wakes up. And I feel good, I'm doing some of the same old shit I usually do, though maybe a bit more verbose and not being quite as rude or as presumptuous as I'd normally be. Without my meds, this conversation probably would have ended long ago. But, instead I feel like I'm having a interesting and slightly productive convo while getting some productivity in around the house.
Now you may say you don't fault me for wanting meds, but maybe that is still your initial prejudice against med users, and even if not... I'm highly confident that it is the case for many who espouse these ideas.
Even if you convinced me to your side, and I stopped taking my meds, well... I'd probably never do a single thing to advance the ideology... Because my meds allow me the persistence to keep focused on a task. Otherwise, its Lemmy -> Torrenting -> Researching that phone issue I'm having -> ~~Cleaning~~ (probably not actually) -> reorganizing my desk, half way at best -> thinking about applying for jobs, but just feeling overwhelmed and inept, and not actually applying to anything -> settling into watch tv while I pull up lemmy, and show review sites, torrents, researching a new phone... and that'd be my whole day. Literally.
Maybe I just lack the imagination, or hope to even attempt to imagine a world in which the above is perfectly fine and 5% of the population can just do that all day. Maybe if it was more socially acceptable for that to be the entire itinerary for my day, then I wouldn't feel so bad about it. But I think I really do want to get a job where I can put my knowledge to use, to be able to contribute equitably to house work and household earnings, and work on longer term personal projects. Despite some clear evidence that I can code quite well, have quite an aptitude for it, I've never worked on a personal project that took longer than 12 hours.
If thats longer than my other comments, its because I switched to my laptop where I am able to stream-of-consciousness much more effectively.
See I have a rather different experience because I have never had meds. I still managed to get a master degree and apply for jobs. The issue I have in my life is that despite applying for many jobs (okay probably less than a more motivated person) I still don't get anything. Why? I don't know. I doubt it's something I have done given I don't even get replies to most of them, so it's not like I have interview problems. In this case it's unrealistic expectations put upon graduates looking for jobs especially with regards to experience. How can you have 1+years of industry experience when you have only just graduated and no one is willing to take a chance? I think others get around this by applying very early while still in University. You could argue that my neurodivergence prevented me from applying while busy doing my dissertation, but I don't think every NT person could have done that either. The bigger issue is that this barrier exists in the first place when it something everone has to clear. Sorry for the rant, it's been a very frustrating time.
I can relate to the understanding of feeling broken and I am glad you have something that helps at least a little bit. The issue is I don't think medication alone is the anwser, if it was you would already have a job. I think if a society wants you to be productive it needs to organize itself and give you work suitable for you're talents rather than expecting people to find work that may not even be avalible. I think labour needs to be more organised to better take advantage of the skills of different people.
I generally think that the same medications that allow ADHD people to be more productive also helps NT people be more productive. That's why college students and the army use these medications. It's the same effect just in a different context. I am aware there are people that stimulants do impact differently, but from my understanding it's more about calming them down rather than giving them energy and executive funtion to get through various tasks. I could be very wrong here as I don't have the experience as I have never been prescibred psychiatric medications. What I know about these things is through similar recreational substances or through listening to others
Edit: also I should point out that some of the things I tried recreationally also ended up improving my productivity and we're later used for that perpose. Kratom in particular comes to mind. You may find it helpful though it has more risks than some people want to acknowledge. In the vain of treating symptoms MDMA has been tested for treating social anxiety in autistic people and I think it may have heled me understand other people a bit better but it's kind of hard to tell because lots of things were changing for me in that time of my life.
I’m new to the meds, as still tuning my regiment, but as is I do have an interview to look forward to. Which is way ahead of where I was a couple of months ago.
Also, medication do not have the same effect on NT as they do on ND, specifically stimulants and ADHDers. That’s a myth, backed up by research, lots of it. If you enjoy acquiring knowledge through videos, like I do, you may want to check out lectures, or the shorter videos by Dr Russell Barkley, arguably the world’s foremost expert on the topic of ADHD.
I have looked at a couple Russell Barkley videos. I haven't found anything on how ADHD people respond differently to stimulants than people of any other neurotype. Could you point me in the right direction?
How can a myth be backed up by lots of research? I am confused what you mean here.
I am also not claiming that they have the exact same effect on all people. Rather that they do improve productivity in many circumstances for both groups of people (NT and ND). Also neurodivergent people are not a single block and neither are neurotypicals. Not all ADHD or autistic people will respond the same way to stimulants. Not even one the same person is effected the same way by the same drug every single time. One of the lessons taught in the psychonaut community is that drugs can effect you differently depending on many factors including you're mindset, the dosage, the exact substance, and what condition you're body is in (set and setting is the simplified version of this). I have experienced the stimulant inversion you are talking about but it's not very consistent. It's basically tossing a coin what effect I will have for a certain stimulant every time I take it; this is part of why I don't do that particular substance often. It could also be a dosage dependant phenomena.
But on that specific issue of getting experience before graduation, yeah, it’s a dumb situation. It’s giving me trouble getting a CS job, but I’m interviewing for a Sys Admin job bc I’m experienced in that, and this particular employer also likes that I have a CS degree bc they’re a software company.
I was looking for coding, sysadmin, or even cyber security and still didn't get anything. I am now looking more broadly into technician roles and computer repair as I think they might be easier to apply to. I have already cast the net wider than most yet people have told me to look more broadly (as if I didn't already do that lol). I am glad to here from someone I can actually relate to. I am even looking at jobs in the brewing industry as I have a special interest/hyperfixation in that area.
My next plan of action is to network, I’ve started a bit, but especially if this interview doesn’t work out, I’m going to make networking a job itself. Try to make friends with people in the industry, since I actually enjoy it, I imagine I could make friends with people who also enjoy coding and find opportunities that way. I hear referrals make all the difference, because they mostly ensure that you’ll actually get eyes on your application and even if you’re equally qualified as others, the referral gives you the edge.
I’ve also got a couple of existing friends keeping an ear out for openings, though many companies aren’t recruiting much right now.
While that sort of makes sense I think it's bad you have to do that. This is what I mean when I say society is broken, nobody should have to depend on nepotism or networking just to find suitable employment. It's one of my major bug bears with capitalism.