this post was submitted on 23 Dec 2023
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The people who think Trump should be allowed to run in spite of being an insurrectionist are the same people who support barring other justice-involved people from merely voting in an election
I'm a little out of the loop, serious question, was he ever actually convicted of organizing an insurrection?
Edit: I'm not an American but apparently asking questions makes you "the enemy" over there. Jesus Christ your country is fucked.
There's no requirement that he was previously convicted of insurrection - that's a separate charge and carries a higher bar. The constitution only requires that the court concludes as part of this case that he was involved in an insurrection. And there's a wealth of evidence showing that he was so the courts will almost certainly come to that conclusion.
Are you arguing that the judges who concluded he organized an insurrection did so in error? None of the confederates who asked their that disability be removed by vote argued that they didn't need to do so because they had not been so convicted.
There is a process for deciding if criminal behavior happened, it's called a conviction. We've seen judges make mistakes assessing the reality of criminal behavior all the time in Civil Asset Forfeiture cases where the standard of conviction isn't required.
Because those confederate involvement in the Confederacy was a matter of public record. If we had fought a war against a military force Trump had organized, and that force surrendered; then we wouldn't need a conviction.
The insurrection and Trumps role in it is a matter of public record. He doesn't dispute the facts of the case he just disagrees with whether his actions are illegal and what the consequences are. The judge's disagree.
Out of the loop my ass
No, and that is one of many real and legitimate issues with the legal theory of using the 14th Amendment to bar him from the Presidency.
I thought the 14th doesn't mention convictions by design.
The silence as to convictions is certainly not by design, the drafters’ committee notes are clear on that much. Indeed, the jurisprudential history of Section 3 is one that requires such a finding.
Cases are seperate. A federal judge already ruled he was guilty of a insurrection. They stated that the removal of them from the ballot needed to go through the proper channels. Colorado's supreme court (1 possible proper channel) then ruled he should not be on the ballot.
Every state has control over their own elections but can be directed by the federal level. The federal case is moving forward, just slowly as per following all proper procedure and people fighting to slow it down.
Same reason there is no criminal charges for fraud in NY at this time. He was found guilty in a civil court which showed the fraud existed, and made it so fraud charges should be an easy case in a criminal court.
In the riot's aftermath, the US House of Representatives impeached the then-president on a charge of "incitement of insurrection".
Had the US Senate voted to convict him, it would have had the option to take a second, simple-majority vote to bar him from ever serving in office again.
But that never happened: the Senate failed to reach the two-thirds majority required to convict Mr Trump, so there was no second vote.
Source
Just as a polite heads up, this is basically all incorrect, with regard to legal procedure and process, at least as it applies to the topic being discussed here.
then explain why these are incorrect, make your case
You're wrong.
Yeah, I totally remember how Trump led the charge up the Capitol steps, the whole time shouting "the tree of liberty is watered with the blood of tyrants!!"
Yes, apparently that's the ONLY way anyone can ever start an insurrection. Damn your astute logic. If only everyone can be as flawlessly intelligent as you. All he did was plan with the Proud Boys to help rile people up and direct them towards the capital; privately reach out and pressure state election administrators to lie and overturn election results; claim that he was cheated and lied to everyone for weeks prior to Jan 6th, effectively building a political bonfire that he planned to light on Jan. 6th; give a speech where he helped to incite a mob and direct them towards the capital steps, with the Proud Boys helping to lead the chargea and effectively direct the crowds anger; and even actually tried to march to the Capital himself to lead the charge. But other than that, he did absolutely nothing. God damn, if we could only be so smart as you.
...and his counter argument is going to be based on due process and arguing that because he wasn't openly engaged in insurrection that any accusation that he should be disqualified should have to be proven by due process of law.
The sad thing is, that's a totally reasonable take. Which is why his legal team is also going to delay as hard as possible, until they can argue that still having the trial prior to the election is tantamount to election interference and it should be postponed until afterwards.
Because the only chance he has of getting away with any of it is getting elected or getting a GOP president who will pardon him.