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Europe will lose all credibility if Russia wins in Ukraine, warns French president Macron
(www.telegraph.co.uk)
this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2024
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As if Europe or the „Western“ world in general would still have any credibility with the Gaza genocide.
I truly feel sorry for Ukrainians as the support for the resistance was never about actual solidarity or values.
They’re arabs! Who cares
We are talking about white people here.
As someone who lives 60km away from the Russian border, this but unironically.
Sorry, I got carried away for a second. I think there were some white doctors there or something at some point so that confused me
We helped Arabs in the same way we helped the Ukrainians, back when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan.
Watch in wonder as we abandon Ukraine just as quickly as we did Afghanistan.
I have a feeling that it's mainly about power. Russia having more power will be catastrophic to the world
It’s not like the West is any more humane, we’re just committing all the atrocities far away from ourselves. It’s objectively better for almost anyone to live in a Western country than in the places we oppress. And I wouldn’t want to live in Russia or China either.
I totally agree that Russia shouldn’t have power. But how much does the Western power help middle easterners? Or how much did it help in Korea, Vietnam, …
So it’s fighting Russia's power isn’t based on a consistent moral framework. It’s just done because our own quality of life is better if Russia has less power.
@bolzolol
Aren't you getting tired of this?
Ah yeah the typical whataboutism accusation. Whataboutism is certainly a problem when trolls try to derail debates.
In this case though the statement that Europe would lose all credibility if Ukraine loses relies on the premise that there’s any credibility left to begin with. I’m challenging that premise.
It’s blatantly obvious that the support for Ukraine was always just about geopolitics, and never about moral or values. Now, the geopolitical interest seems to have shifted, hence no more support for Ukraine. See e.g. Scholz not even giving any reasons for denying support, except that he says so.
I think all of this is terrible and I want Ukraine to be supported, but our dear Western leaders are morally bankrupt so I’m afraid it may not happen.
You realize that there's a genocide happening in Ukraine too that is much more intentional than Gaza right? I've read Putin's papers on Ukrainian identity, or rather lack thereof. The Russians are abducting all of the Ukrainian children and turning them into Russians by forcing them to speak Russian and indoctrinating them. They have stripped the occupied territory of young Ukrainian men to kill off families there.
I guess that because we're slow to provide aid to Gaza, we're supposed to ignore the Ukrainian genocide and European security threat that is Russia.
Good news is that we're now dropping food aid and the Americans are putting floating docks there to deliver aid. Maybe next time the Gazan militias will distribute the food aid for free instead of selling it to the people.
I'm not sure if you understand the politics of Gaza, Israel, Hamas, the PNA, Egypt or Iran. You have to understand all of the players before you can make a good opinion. You also have to understand what is and isn't a war crime. And what exactly Genocide is.
Go read UN reports and their definitions of war crimes. Learn to recognize deception in war footage. Read about the politics of each faction. And maybe then, you can have a decent opinion
I find it very strange to tell someone you know nothing about that they have no clue what they’re talking about simply because they disagree with you.
The mental gymnastics you’re doing to assert that the situation in Ukraine and Gaza would be different is either driven by racism (which I don’t want to accuse you of) or ignorance out of a geopolitical interest.
First of all, intention is central to the legal definition of genocide. You cannot accidentally commit genocide. Both Russia and Israel are very open about their intentions and it’s clear that they want to eradicate the Ukrainians/Palestinians as a people and claim the land for themselves.
The only difference is that we’re arming the victim in the case of Ukraine and the perpetrators in the case of Israel. If you’re interested in UN reports then feel free to read their assessments on the war crimes, ethnic cleansings, Apartheid, illegal occupation, indefinite mass imprisonments without charge, torture, sexual abuse during said imprisonment, and most recently on the genocide. Feel free to also read the ICJ case by South Africa.
If your empathy extends only to some people it’s up to you to figure out why. It only proves my point that Europe has no credibility to begin with. Our support for Ukraine is purely driven by our own interest to fight back against Russia. Ukrainians are nothing but a pawn for us, although it’s a convenient narrative that they’re the victims and we’re doing it for a greater cause.
Maybe I'm just salty that this war is going so well for Hamas and Netenyahou both. Nenenyahou gets to satisfy his conservative base by way of ethnic cleansing and Hamas has gathered so much international sympathy that it makes ISIS look like a school fundraiser. Terrorism works, and that was Hamas' goal at the start.
I know that under the UN statute, many Israeli officials are likely guilty of genocide. The ICC is going to have to decide that like they have for Russia. Netenyahou is chief among them. To excuse Ukranian Genocide by saying that we aren't doing enough about Gaza is the main thing that I'm angry about.
As a side note, I see the echoes of the Battle of Mosul where ISIS used many of the same tactics to cause as much suffering as possible to the civilian population. Maybe that's what put me off from Hamas
Unfortunately, we can't afford to intervene in every genocide that's happening, whether in Armenia, Myanmar, Xinjiang or Sudan. We are complicit in the genocide of Uighurs for cheap goods. I'm so tired
I totally get your stance on Hamas and I think most of us feel this way. Hamas are not the good guys. I don’t think Hamas has gathered a lot of sympathy at least in the Western world, e.g. in German media they’re still always called either terrorists or radical islamists/jihadists. But it’s also mind-boggling to me how much legitimacy they have gained through October 7. The world shouldn’t work like this but it keeps rewarding ruthless violence.
And I think another part of the problem is seeing global conflicts like football matches. Like in this conflict someone is team Ukraine and in this other conflict they‘re actually team Russia/Iran/China/… because ABC. But how can people think like that? We should always be on the side of humanity & the principle that every person on this planet has a right to live in safety, freedom & dignity.
I’m just really really dreading the double standards applied to people based on whether or not they’re useful to us. Of course we can’t intervene everywhere, it would already be big if we would stop sending weapons and ammo, and if we would stop providing rhetoric cover for this genocide. Or if we would stop being partners with the genocidal Azerbaijani government. Like we could just stop supporting genocidal regimes but because of money and power we ignore or even excuse what they do.
Another thing I saw is Russian trolls are hijacking the Gaza war to destabilize Western countries. I think this contributes to the distrust in someone calling out the West‘s hypocrisy. It became so Russian propaganda tool to do so, and naturally those propagandists will also be extremely pro-Russian. Like wtf.
Anyway, thanks for exchange, I totally feel and share your frustration. I would like to end this with some positive or encouraging note but honestly wouldn’t know what that would be, politics is so fucked.