There's also a middle ground between consumer cooperatives which are more on the communal side and worker cooperatives that are more on the libertarian socialist side with Worker Consumer Cooperatives that align both kinds of stakeholders with ownership and management reducing exploitation on both ends.

[–] banneryear1868@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Not wholly opposed to that, markets can serve the purpose they're designed for, and I could see an evolution of cybersyn that helps run the economy using simulated markets.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

I certainly think it's much better than current Capitalism, that's for sure, though it's not enough to truly reach the finish line.

[–] Overshoot2648@lemm.ee 1 points 7 months ago

As a Mutualist, while there are a few things that could be better centralized, I'm in favor of a full worker consumer cooperative economy. Housing, groceries, and, utilities all work better as cooperatives, but capitalist have enough wealth to often push cooperatives out in other markets.

[–] SexWithDogs@infosec.pub 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Oh, I wouldn't know anything about that.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 7 months ago (2 children)

That's what I would consider left, but not far-left. I suppose Socialism with Liberal Democracy, as opposed to a more direct or decentralized version of democracy, would be left but not far left as well. Capitalism ends where left begins.

[–] Overshoot2648@lemm.ee 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

It's not linear. Anarchist or Libertarian Socialist systems like Syndicalism, Mutualism, Georgism, and Distributism are just as Socialist as Marxism in that they prevent the exploitation of capital accumulation, but they favor direct stakeholder ownership of firms in place of a state or other more communal systems that create an inherent hierarchy of power.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago

I'm aware that it's not linear, but it's also not a 2 axis grid, either. There are generally groups of ideologies based on what class they represent, and the methods they use.

Left and right are more for shorthand.

[–] SexWithDogs@infosec.pub -3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Capitalism ends where left begins.

I'm not sure if you're gatekeeping or just generalizing.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Neither. The left/right divide is Socialism/Capitalism. There are various Overton Windows, ie what is considered left or right when compared to an areas median, like Liberalism being left of the American median despite being a right-wing, Capitalist ideology.

Anarchism, Communism, Marxism, and other forms of Socialism are leftist, while Liberalism, Social Democracy, and fascism are rightist.

[–] SexWithDogs@infosec.pub -3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Uh. Okay. If you say so. I wasn't going to say anything about the No True Scotsman fallacy, but you really did force my hand with that last one. That's outright silly, and a pretty vile attempt to coerce conformity out of of other progressives who don't align with your perspective on economics by thinking you can label them "right-wing" for it.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

How would you propose left/right be divided, if not by the commonly accepted mechanics by which they differ?

[–] SexWithDogs@infosec.pub -2 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I'm so glad you asked.

commonly accepted mechanics

I'm beginning to feel a little gas-lit.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

That refers to the Overton Window, as you can see it's generally just vibes, and not actual measurable mechanics.

[–] SexWithDogs@infosec.pub -2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Right. I must've missed that because I don't care about this conversation at all. Labels were never my thing to begin with. But you can call me right-wing if it makes you feel better, as long as I get to keep my trans boyfriend.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

You asked me, so I answered. Personally, I think left/right is hopelessly reductive, it ties too many unrelated things together, and says nothing of social views, of which you're presumably very progressive despite right wing economic views.

That's why I wouldn't call you "right wing" before I called you a liberal, which I'm sure we are both comfortable with.

[–] SexWithDogs@infosec.pub -2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Hey, you're the expert.

I personally couldn't care less about economics. There are too many things to be right and passionate about for me to start worrying about all that theoretical insanity.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 7 months ago

That's fine, never said you had to.