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Seeing a lot of this lately... (lemmy.world)

submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by realitista@lemmy.world to c/comicstrips@lemmy.world

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[–] edgesmash@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Let me restate your point to make sure I understand it, as I haven't seen your point expressed elsewhere.

Scenario 1:

Democratic candidate for president is Biden.
Progressives want a more progressive candidate for the next election, so they refuse to vote for Biden.
As a result, Trump wins the election.
In the 2028 DNC primaries, the democratic candidate for president is more progressive than Biden was.
Progressives vote for the dem candidate, who wins.
The democratic party is permanently shifted leftwards.

In this scenario, having a more progressive president in 2028 (and beyond) outweighs the damage caused by a Trump presidency.

Scenario 2:

Democratic candidate for president is Biden.
Progressives decide to vote for Biden, despite their distaste.
As a result, Biden wins reelection.
In the 2028 DNC primaries, the democratic candidate for president is similar to Biden.
The democratic party stays centrist, to the distaste of progressives.

In this scenario, avoiding a Trump presidency is worth giving up the opportunity to move the democratic party permanently more leftwards.

Do I have this right? If not, please, I'm truly curious, as I find your game theory points compelling.

Assuming I do have your position correct, I think you're making a couple of inaccurate assumptions:

While the DNC clearly tips the scales in favor of its preferred candidate, the DNC is not the sole decision maker. (For example, in the 2008 primaries, the voters chose Obama despite the clear preference of the DNC for Clinton.)
A Trump presidency would be singularly bad for the nation, both in the short term (e.g., immediate repeal of executive actions on gun control, clean energy, and LGBTQ+ rights; increased support of Israel's genocide in Gaza) and long term (e.g., more MAGA judges and justices, further emboldening the GOP to be more MAGA). It's also possible that a Trump presidency effectively ends proper democracy in the US, meaning any potential gains of a future progressive president would be irrelevant.

I agree that the more we push the party leftward, the better for all. But I believe the time to do this is in presidential primaries, state/county/local elections, local and national organizing, and even personal outreach to individuals (admittedly, this last one is very small scale, but it's also the only way to truly change people's minds and positions).

[–] Aceticon@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yeah those are basically the Scenarios with two big corrections in scenario #2:

The next will probably be worse than Biden since the DNC, upon seeing that lefties will even vote for a candidate that supports a quasi-Nazi regime activelly commiting a Genocide will likely conclude that they will not rebel not matter what, so expect an even further shift to the right of the Democrat party.
The Democratic Party is not centrist, not even close: it's pro-Oligarchy, which is an anti-Democratic hard-right position (anti-Democratic because it places Money above The State, which is the Power that voters supposedly control hence gives primacy to Money and those who have most of it, hard-right because defending that those who have most Money get the most Power and choices is in direct opposition to Equality, even just that of Opportunities).

As for the DNC not being able to stop a left of center candidate, just look at what they did against Sanders, even before counting the super-candidates which were going to vote against him anyway and override the popular vote. The idea that Obama is in any way, form or shape left of Obama is hilarious for anybody who, like me, was in Finance at the time of the 2008 Crash and had a front row seat to see how exactly Obama unconditionally saved the wealthiest people and made everybody else pay the price - just because the guy is a true political songbird who makes amazing speeches doesn't mean "the greatest good for the greatest number" - the core principle of the Left - is even in the tinyiest of ways part of his principles. The Clinton-vs-Obama primary was a fight between two kinds of neoliberals that put in opposition two factions within the American Elites, not a fight between somebody representing the average American and somebody representing the Elites.

We don't know really how bad a Trump presidency will be, though we know for sure just how far to the right are Biden's principles, but yeah, you are right that a Trump presidency might (it's all speculation until it actually happens) be incredibly destructive, which is why I pointed out in my comment (last paragraph) that it's definitelly a risk and people should consider all things in their voting decision.

Personally I think either of them will lead to the death for good of Democracy in America, though doing it via Biden will probably mean it will happen with more steps, but that's just my opinion based on the trend so far (and, that I expect that a guy who supports what are basically the modern Nazis whilst they mass murder civilians because of being from another etnicity is either a sociopath or an extreme racist and that means he will just as happilly fuck up the lives of Americans - though, no doubt, unlike Trump he will be telling them that's not what he's doing - just as as he is right now happilly helping out murdering en mass Palestinians: good people don't knowingly help others commit mass murder).

I might be wrong on all of this and even if I'm not, not being American or living in America I'm way more isolated and have no real stake on that choice, so I openly admit that I have the priviledge of being able to hold a Thinking Person's highly intellectual position on this because either way it impacts me very little personally, so I can just analyse the whole situation and point out the broader implications of the voting decision for a leftie and the profound hypocrisy of the Propaganda which tries to deceive people with the idea that it's a simple consequences free choice, with no real additional risk either way for my own future.