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Free speech, as a concept, is the very first thing all fascists turn on people who value freedom. It is that value of freedom that makes the free speech argument so powerful. "How can you love freedom if you don't even let us speak?" they will say with crocodile tears and false humbleness. And then, they will take full advantage of the fairness and moral treatment they are given to promote their brand of hate. You cannot stop fascism by treating it with fairness. They will not give you the same, and the end goal is to destroy the exact thing you are giving to them. Fascism has to be stopped in its tracks, immediately. If you entertain them in any way that allows them to signal with their dog whistles you've already lost. And we've lost a lot, because our leaders aren't even bothering to use dog whistles anymore. They're just stating it outright.

No one had any illusions about how this was going to go. The point was making them do it. The point was forcing Reddit into a PR nightmare just before their big IPO. The point was giving this platform traction. The fact that this post exists on this platform is proof that the mods succeeded. Sure, Reddit is still huge.. but with entire mod teams being replaced with Spez bootlickers it remains to be seen whether they can maintain what they have, or if this is Digg all over again.

It's hard to predict what will happen, but I'm here, and you're here, so something is happening.

If you upvote a post it will put it in your Favorites. You can access favorites by hovering over the hamburger menu just to the left of your username in the top right corner. To upvote without putting it in your favorites, you can use boost instead. This is essentially how you save posts on kbin.

Thank you for the clarification there. I hope you don't mind having this conversation with me, I'm learning a lot by interacting with people on this topic. I don't want you to feel like I'm arguing with you though. So the GDPR seems fairly bullet proof, but it only applies within the EU. So how about a scenario like this:

Your instance is hosted in the EU and has the full protection of the GDPR. My instance is hosted in the US where the GDRP does not apply. Your instance federates with mine. I federate with Meta. Meta now has your data but they didn't get it from a GDPR protected source. You consented to give it to me, and I consented to give it to them. They have no obligation to uphold the GDPR because they've had no interaction with your instance whatsoever, they've simply accepted what I gave them and that transaction occurred within the jurisdiction of the US.

Maybe the GDPR still works here, I don't know. But I guess my point is that if I can come up with endless scenarios like this, lawyers can too, and they know infinitely more about the law than I do. Hell, they can even come up with their own interpretations of law and act on them for years, only changing their practices when they're forced to by someone actually suing them. Which by then they've already collected and sold millions worth of data.

Thank you for your clarification! I don't know any of the legal specifics of this stuff and I very much appreciate you taking the time to help educate me and anyone else who needs it. I can only give a conceptual argument based on the history I've seen with these companies, but not any sort of specific knowledge of law.

The gist of what you're saying, and what we've actually seen play out recently, is technically they shouldn't be able to do this, but they're going to lawyer it in such a way that they'll get away with it unless/until someone actually sues them which is prohibitively expensive. We have recently seen class action suits against Meta, but realistically the damage has already been done, the money has already been made, and they go on with finding the next cash cow. Even a multimillion dollar settlement is a drop in the bucket, simply the cost of doing business for these people.

Yes, this is exactly the sticky issue we get into. And I'm wondering if lawyers would be able to make a case that using ActivityPub alone automatically gives your consent to have your data exist on an instance outside your own. Once they have data you've consented to give they can do with it as they please, essentially arguing you've become a consenting party when you consented to federation. I don't know the GDPR well enough to have any answers, but you can bet Meta lawyers do.

I don't think Facebook would be having high level NDA-protected talks with Mastodon people if they weren't trying to work all this out. And by work out, I mean how to monetize/data mine. I've been talking about this with people all day, many of whom didn't see a problem with this, but eventually all of them have had the lightbulb turn on when they realize the potential abuse Meta could do with/to ActivityPub.

If, by some miracle, Meta wants to be the good guy for a change, let them prove it. I would love to see defederation by default, and let Meta prove they're trustworthy to federate to. And even then, have a really itchy defederate trigger finger if they even hint at pulling another Cambridge Analytica fiasco. But getting everyone on-board with that is probably impossible, especially if Meta starts throwing money around.

What I'm taking issue with is essentially the same thing that is getting Reddit into hot water. Spez is acting like all the content on Reddit is exclusively his. And legally, it probably is, since it exists on his servers. Now if you extrapolate that out to Meta on ActivityHub, any instance that federates with them immediately puts all of your content directly onto Meta's servers. Once it's in their possession, it's legally theirs to do with as they please. If they want to pull a Facebook or Reddit, using your data, they can with no way for you to opt-out. Sure, nothing is stopping people from doing it already, but Meta does not have your best interest in mind. Ever. They've shown it again and again. So I think people are preemptively wanting to cut off this spigot of user data to Meta because their abuse of it is a matter of when, not if. Any other company might deserve the benefit of the doubt, but Meta? We know who they are already.

Also, as I said elsewhere, Meta could already use a bot to scrape Lemmy instances, but you can't sell a bot to investors. But you can sell a platform. Meta will build a slick platform to sell to investors and sit back while federation fills up their instance with data which they'll turn around and sell the same way they do on Facebook. To me this is very different than setting up an RSS feed.

it's either about ruining the ethos, stealing the data and/or changing the protocol.

Honestly, it's probably all 3 and more we haven't even though of yet. I don't think anyone could have predicted all the scandals Facebook has been involved in regarding misuse of user data, and that was just on their own platform. ActivityPub literally hands them the keys to the castle. Add in all the toxic political stuff and.. it just makes my head hurt.

Anyway, I appreciate having the conversation with you. Discussing it has helped solidify my feelings about it.

You're right of course. People will flock to Meta, it will probably become the poster boy of the Fediverse over a few years, and then little by little the evil will creep in until it's so established we just accept it, same as we've done with Facebook. The terrible thing is that it will not be something we can just op-out of. I can chose not to use Facebook. With this situation, I would have to chose not to use the entire ActivityPub protocol, not just Meta's platform.

It's a disaster waiting to happen. Like you said, I don't think we can do much, and even if we try, it'll fracture the whole fediverse concept. But when you ask "Why are people concerned about Meta using ActivityPub?" this is why.

Sure, but you can't get investors interested in a bot. You can sell them a platform though. Meta will make the flashiest UI the fediverse has ever seen and sell that to investors, while harvesting and selling everything on the fediverse whether you use their platform or not. The only possible way to keep your data out of Meta's hands is to defederate anyone and everything associated with them. I know it sounds tinfoil hat, but honestly evaluate how Facebook does business and then imagine how ripe ActivityPub is for that sort of exploitation. If I used Facebook I have agreed to allow myself to be data mined, but if I use kbin I have not agreed, and yet, Meta can still do it if even one mutual server has agreed (or been paid) to federate to both platforms.

I feel a little lame quoting myself, but I was just having this discussion elsewhere so I'm just going to copy/pate my thoughts rather then thinking of a different way to say it this time.

Say you have 10 servers. 7 are Lemmy, 3 are kbin. Great, each admin has control over those servers. Then you have Meta. They'll run 1 huge server. When the 10 other servers enable Federation, Meta now has 10 servers of content that isn't even on their own platform that they can sell. Your data will literally exist on the Meta server because your data is not contained within your instance/platform once it's Federated. Meta can then harvest the entire Fediverse for data like this. It's like an absolute wet dream for them. They don't even have to coax people to use their own platform!

If your instance has defederated from Meta, but is federated with an instance that does federate with Meta, then Meta still has access to all your data through that mutual server. So not only would people have to defederate from Meta, they'd have to defederate with anyone who does federate with Meta. If everyone isn't on board with this, it'll cause a huge fracture to form.

Make no mistake: Meta wants to sell your data. They know all it takes is one server to federate with them and they've unlocked the entire fediverse to be harvested. I would not be shocked to see large amounts of cash flowing in exchange for federation rights.

Meta must be defederated the second they so much as dip a toe into the Fediverse or everything you've ever done, or do, on any ActivityHub platform will be scooped up and sold.

I'll just add that Meta will state that anything on their server is their property, and Federation will put your data directly on their server, even if you're not a member of their platform.

The problem is that the blocking will have to be layers deep. If your instance has defederated from Meta, but is federated with an instance that does federate with Meta, then Meta still has access to all your data through that mutual server. So not only would people have to defederate from Meta, they'd have to defederate with anyone who does federate with Meta. If everyone isn't on board with this, it'll cause a huge fracture to form.

Make no mistake: Meta wants to sell your data. They know all it takes is one server to federate with them and they've unlocked the entire fediverse to be harvested. I would not be shocked to see large amounts of cash flowing in exchange for federation rights.