Degrowth

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Discussions about degrowth and all sorts of related topics. This includes UBI, economic democracy, the economics of green technologies, enviromental legislation and many more intressting economic topics.

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MrMakabar@slrpnk.net

Capitalism is killing the planet – but curtailing it is the discussion nobody wants to have (www.irishtimes.com)

submitted 2 months ago by MrMakabar@slrpnk.net to c/degrowth@slrpnk.net

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[–] SacredHeartAttack@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago (2 children)

While I don’t disagree with that at all, I will point out that I try to have this conversation with people all the time. I get mostly ignored on the matter.

[–] confusedpuppy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Both points are very valid. I have had a difficult time trying to approach the topic of alternatives to capitalism with other people.

I try to speak to them in language that they would understand. I also try to speak to them in a way that would empathise with them. I am very careful with my words because I do not want to accidentally or directly attack them and cause a defensive response. Once someone becomes defensive, they are more likely to reject what's being said to them and become hostile towards me and my lifestyle.

The most common issue I have in these conversations is that the other person I'm talking to appears to be unable to imagine another life without capitalism. All their problem solving skills heavily rely on buying more. Their long term goals center around accumulating wealth. The people they look up to and attempt to follow are all wealth hoarders.

I don't expect to be able to deprogram anyone from the constant propaganda produced by capitalism. It does sadden me though. The people that I talked to are just not curious about any alternatives and would rather defend a lifestyle and the systems that oppresses their very own happiness and freedom to be themselves. These conversations exhaust me and now I'm just too low on energy to have the motivation to try anymore.

I do hope to one day see the start of change. Where common people finally understand just how hilariously outnumbered wealth hoarders are and begin to work together to rebuild communities that reject and fight against such oppressive peoples and systems.

Unfortunately without much support, especially from any local community, it's hard to even approach this issue.

[–] MrMakabar@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

A few ideas:

families tend to be non capitalist. We hand over a lot to our children without asking for repayment
exchange networks are common among friends. You help somebody out and do not get anything in return immediatly, but a later when they need help, you come and help them
roads, schools, public transport and so forth is often run by governments, which in a democracy should belong to the people, hence all of us
clubs often have ownership of assets, which are shared among members. Sports fields for a sports club and so forth. Nobody tries to make money of that
credit unions are a common form of cutomer cooperatives
workers cooperatives are also a thing, although much rarer, but they work
creative commons like Wikipedia and open source projects like Linux, Firefox and so forth are a thing
a lot of people volunteer for a lot of different causes

As for buying stuff, the key here is to ask what they are buying it for. For example is having a car worth working an extra day for. That btw is rather realistic depending on the income. After all less spending = less income needed.

[–] confusedpuppy@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 months ago

I appreciate the suggestions but this brings up another issue that I have had with these types of conversations. Far too many of the people I've spoken to live in a constant state of hypocrisy or contradiction.

It's going to be hard for me to fully explain this as I just don't have the energy to deal with people anymore and have chosen to keep in contact with very few people over the past few years. That is to say, my contact with people in general has been somewhat limited.

It does somewhat go back to my points about defensiveness and defending peoples and systems that are oppressive. On many occasion, explaining certain hypocrisies as simply and clearly to the best of my efforts was still seen as an attack on themselves. The simple suggestion that change for all requires change on a personal level was unthinkable for them.

Even though capitalism is causing so much unhappiness in their lives, they want it to stay because it seems to me that it brings them a sort of comfort through habit or routine. Disrupting what brings their vision of comfort is scary and so they react in hostility.

I say all this through my experience of fighting for the right to be treated with dignity in a workplace that was crumbling under it's own weight of sexism, racism, classism and ageism. Where it was important to have as many people be supportive of what I was fighting for so we could all benefit together. What I received was constant shame and belittlement for opposing authority alongside praises for opposing authority. From the same people. Does that make sense? Not to me.

Humans are complex. Far too complex for me to even attempt to explain how complex they can be. Unfortunately, I just no longer have the energy or patience to continue. Especially as a person of colour in a small conservative town.

[–] SurfinBird@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 months ago

We’re at “ok we all agree but what do we do?”