this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2023
959 points (100.0% liked)
Memes
45172 readers
2247 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Idk, gonna be a very hot take, but I like my beliefs challenged and believe that everyone deserves a voice
Deserving a voice is in no way the same as deserving an audience.
Fascism isn’t an ideology that gets defeated in the marketplace of ideas. It’s core belief is enabling a small minority to violently destroy other lives. It’s not worth your consideration.
I agree with this, but some beliefs are well... utterly stupid and not worth reconsidering. It's a waste of time really.
It's the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous, particularly when "worthless" involves prison sentences.
Not making a decision is in and of itself a decision. Saying 'Nazis deserve a voice because everyone deserves a voice' removes the voice of minorities because Nazis murder and oppress minorities. There is a decision that has to be made somewhere. Saying 'everyone deserves a voice and Nazis deserve a platform!' is limiting the voice of minorities.
Could you clarify?
Sure. In authoritarian states, it's common to outlaw "lies" about the government, where the government essentially gets to define what a lie is. The United States has its history with such laws in the Alien and Sedition Act in the late 18th century. In more modern times, you see things like Russia outlawing "lies" about the Russo-Ukraine War (including calling it a war). And by lies, I mean anything that does not match Russia's "everything is fine" narrative. There's also Poland banning discussion of Nazi collaboration by Poles in 2018.
I definitely separate that from things like deplatforming. Both people and companies should have freedom of association when it comes to political options. They should never be forced to support speech that they disagree with.
Which Lemmy instance was it that suspended Habeas Corpus?
None of them. Lemmy instances defederating are the epitome of another freedom, freedom of association. People should be able to choose who and who not to associate with without interference from the government.
It's actually a limp ice cold take that's been debated to death
The problem is, this isn’t just a challenge to beliefs. This is the internet. The darkest most depraved shit that can exist… does. People forcing children to do things with animals… I’ll stop there…
The U.S. constitution supports free speech. Even it has limits. You can’t yell fire in a movie theater and not face the consequences of injuries your speech causes.
You in fact can yell fire in a theater without being arrested. It depends on the context (and weather or not there where injuries)
If the play calls for it and an actor says it. Or more simply if the theater is on fire.
With speech laws it matters more what the context is to the intended audience than what is specifically said.
Did I not mention being responsible for injuries? Your absolutely right, but you’re not correct…
Go test your theory out, I'll be waiting for a reply.
I will next time I'm in a theater that is on fire.
Nazis had a voice once, and folks listened to them. And we ended up with the Holocaust.
Might be controversial but I don't believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that's a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
It's not controversial at all. The only people making "controversy" out of it are the ones who are mad they can't spew hate
Sure, but did they actually say they want to murder minorities?? I'm yet to see that
@kityr @borlax on the fediverse we ban the "nazis deserve a voice" types
So you ban the "everyone deserves a voice" types? Because that's what I said.
@kityr don’t try and sealion your way around making excuses for nazis
Tf is to sealion?? And I'd like to see the nazis you seem to be unable to not mention in a comment. What I've seen is that instances are defederating from exploding-heads. I've gone there, seen some edgier memes, some christianity oriented memes, some better memes(those three not being the same memes obv, the Biden ones are pretty unfunny). I've seen some honestly sensible policies - instead of banning people for using le bad words, they encourage people who are sensitive to such stuff to block and move on. You seem to call people fucking Nazis for using language that offends you, right?
@kityr I tell you not to sealion and then you fucking do it right before me like the dumbest sociopath who’s ever lived
You whine that everyone deserves a voice, “everyone” includes the fascists
This isn’t Twitter, this isn’t Reddit, shut your mouth and go tf back to Reddit
Would you stop putting labels on people and provide the actual fucking examples that cause you to call people Nazis? Or have you simply taken someone's word for it? You're a nazi too btw, why? Because I said so, duh.
You do know that words have a meaning, right? If you express the behaviour of a certain group you usually are part of it.
The world came together in WWII and decided that Nazis didn't deserve a place at the table. There's a difference between "let's decide whose economic policy is more useful now" and "hey I want everyone to have a nice life and these guys think a large chunk of the world doesn't deserve to live at all."
you like it when "other people should be treated as people as a bare minimum" is getting challenged? because that's the belief that your average xeno-/homo-/transphobic asshole challenges. Many beliefs I have ought to be challenged on the regular, but not THAT one