this post was submitted on 23 Sep 2024
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there's a guy that i'm mutuals with on other social media who's on the young side, like just out of college, and he's figuring out what he thinks about politics. he's pretty smart and hangs around cool marxist(-leninist) people, but he's definitely trying to figure out stuff on his own, which is really cool and he's critically engaging with stuff well.

however, it seems like he's seen a lot of patsocs and ACP members bring up weird corners of Marx's writing to try to justify their positions. the particular case he brought up recently was about an ACP guy on twitter using the productive vs unproductive labor distinction to call baristas (you know, people who make coffee for usually really low wages) enemies of the working class because they are unproductive labor. my friend was worried that this kind of weird nonsense argument was necessary for marxists in general. me and some other people explained that no, the ACP guys are picking weird bits of Marx to try to justify their reactionary bullshit and we actually mostly focus on class and not this other stuff. so like no harm done here, but it makes me wonder how often those kind of things go unchallenged in other people's experience.

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[–] Infamousblt@hexbear.net 10 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (2 children)

I used to think that these sorts of people were hurting the cause but over time I realized no, not really. Mostly because the kinds of people who engage with that sort of dialogue try to use it as a weapon, saying things like "see THIS communist says x y or z and that means YOU'RE saying x y or z too." Then you try to engage with that conversation and one of two things happens. Either you explain no, that isn't what we believe and here's why and they listen, or they shout NO TRUE SCOTSMAN at you and pretend like if anyone ever identifies as anything, that means everyone that also identifies as that must be the same. The former group isn't negatively impacted by patsocs because the former group aren't fucking stupid, and the latter group will never engage with you or anyone seriously no matter what you do, so why bother wasting your time.

This lesson helped me a lot once I realized it. Only engage with people who will actually earnestly engage with you. The others are someone else's problem or require a different organizing strategy.

[–] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 1 month ago

The former group isn’t negatively impacted by patsocs because the former group aren’t fucking stupid, and the latter group will never engage with you or anyone seriously no matter what you do

This is good to keep in mind, but I think you can still say Patsoc types hurt the cause. The problem is most people who are exposed to their stuff don't engage with anyone about it, so there's no opportunity to have the sort of discussion you describe (where you can reach the reachable, and the unreachable respond predictably).

A bunch of reachable people get turned off by this/get misinformed about socialism by it, and then we never hear from them (and get to explain what this shit is and why it's bad) because they don't talk to anyone about it the way most people don't talk to anyone about stuff they read online.

[–] Ildsaye@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

different organizing strategy.

glasses-on
PUT...
nazi-punching
...ON...
nazi-punching
...THE GLASSES!
nazi-punching