this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2023
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I know a lot of languages have some aspects that probably seem a bit strange to non-native speakers…in the case of gendered words is there a point other than “just the way its always been” that explains it a bit better?

I don’t have gendered words in my native language, and from the outside looking in I’m not sure what gendered words actually provide in terms of context? Is there more to it that I’m not quite following?

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[–] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 56 points 1 year ago (18 children)

Speaking one language that is mildly gendered (English), two that are strongly (and in the case of the second bizarrely!) gendered (French, German) and one that is almost entirely ungendered (Mandarin), I have not found any utility whatsoever in grammatical gender.

I suspect that grammatical gender is just an ur-form of grammatical classifiers that has stuck around for non-useful amounts of time. I suspect this because one of the grammatical "gender" divisions that's in use in many languages isn't masculine/feminine(/neuter) but rather animate/inanimate. So I suspect that grammatical gender was a classification mechanism whose system and utility was distorted into uselessness over the thousands of years of spread and development.

So why do we have classification mechanisms? Well, in Mandarin there's classifier words. (In English too: "a sheet of paper", not "a paper", but it's waaaaaaaaaaaaay stricter in Mandarin.) The classifiers in Mandarin, given the sheer amount of punning potential in oral language, are likely a redundant piece of information to help nail down which specific word you mean in contexts where it might be unclear. For example in a noisy environment, or if someone is speaking unclearly, "paper" (纸张[zhǐ zhāng]) might be confused with "spider" (蜘蛛 [zhī zhū]). But if I say 一只蜘蛛 [yī zhī zhī zhū]—a spider—it's harder to confuse that with 一张纸张 [yī zhāng zhǐ zhāng]—a piece of paper.

So I'm positing that perhaps at some point grammatical gender was used as a primitive form of classification for disambiguation that some languages just never grew out of. Which is why in German men are masculine, women are feminine, boys are masculine, and girls are neuter. It has nothing to do with actual physical gender and is just a weird, atrophied, and somewhat useless remnant of language.

[–] radix@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (11 children)

Thanks for the explanation!

If I may, what do you mean by English being mildly gendered?

[–] Lockenbert@slrpnk.net 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I dont know as many languages as OP, but I can compare german to english. English is "technically" gendered, but compared to german, basically everything exept the things where it makes sense are neutral. German is complicated. Everything is gendered, and exept for some very obvious stuff (man is male, woman is female) it just is random. Shoulder is female, arm is male but hand is female again. House is neutral, wall is female, floor is male. So in comparison, english is slightly gendered and german is completly and randomly gendered.

[–] radix@lemm.ee 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I guess I didn't associate the English "man"/"woman“ with grammatical gender in the way that grammatical gender is often so arbitrary, like "wall" being female in Gernan. Thanks for the perspective.

[–] amio@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

"Man/woman" are entirely separate nouns, I don't think they're even as closely related as one'd think. Different pronouns aren't the same thing, either.

Basically, this has nothing to do with gender as a social or biological phenomenon. It is just a property of a noun that has an unintuitive name. Similarly to how English arbitrarily decides that you can't say "swimmed" because "swim" is "not that kind of verb", German arbitrarily divides nouns into three classes.

[–] amio@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago

Is it? How? Compared to German (something is masculine, feminine or neuter), French, Spanish (masc., fem.) that "gender" is a property of a noun, that English doesn't really have or care about.

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