this post was submitted on 28 May 2025
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[–] commiewolf@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I should emphasize that I am not really trying to convince them of anything, I have no intent to de-program them as their class interest is really about as divorced from socialism as can be. White, landowning capitalists in the US, so I only really have these discussions with him to understand his perspective, and for him to understand mine. Although I appreciate the talking points, I'll be sure to incorporate them when I do debate libs.

[–] dil@hexbear.net 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I don't think we should give up on individuals because we've reduced them to their class interests. Class interests are an influence, but not a determining factor in ones beliefs. My class interests are opposed to socialism, but I am fighting for it because making the world a better place is more important to me than getting more commas in my bank account.

As a group, capitalists can be counted on to behave in their collective interests, but individuals have complex motivators and internal contradictions that they haven't questioned. Most people want what's best for most people, and most people would be willing to give up something in order to help others. At very least, there are selfish reasons for making the world a better place (note: kurzgesagt).

Very few humans will look within themselves and say "I would rather a hundred people starve than I suffer the slightest inconvenience" (if so - yikes). On the other hand, I think they won't say "I would rather starve than be a slight inconvenience to a hundred people."

Capital would rather a hundred people starve than grow profits slightly slower, but almost all individual capitalists would choose humanity when directly presented with that trolly problem. The evils of capitalism are emergent properties of individuals operating in a system that influences them to put profits over people. Each individual makes morally compromised but understandable "business decisions" to maximize profits, and don't see themselves as THE problem.

Even for those people, pitching a world where they didn't need to compromise their morals is worthwhile. "Wouldn't it be nice if you could focus on making a good widget, instead of pushing to hit next quarter's earnings target?"

I think this is an interesting post on capital itself having material interests, and individual capitalists merely being vessels to carry out those interests.

[–] TankieReplyBot@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 3 days ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy: