this post was submitted on 02 Jun 2025
171 points (70.3% liked)

Late Stage Capitalism

1816 readers
7 users here now

A place for for news, discussion, memes, and links criticizing capitalism and advancing viewpoints that challenge liberal capitalist ideology. That means any support for any liberal capitalist political party (like the Democrats) is strictly prohibited.

A zero-tolerance policy for bigotry of any kind. Failure to respect this will result in a ban.

RULES:

1 Understand the left starts at anti-capitalism.

2 No Trolling

3 No capitalist apologia, anti-socialism, or liberalism, liberalism is in direct conflict with the left. Support for capitalism or for the parties or ideologies that uphold it are not welcome or tolerated.

4 No imperialism, conservatism, reactionism or Zionism, lessor evil rhetoric. Dismissing 3rd party votes or 'wasted votes on 3rd party' is lessor evil rhetoric.

5 No bigotry, no racism, sexism, antisemitism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, or any type of prejudice.

6 Be civil in comments and no accusations of being a bot, 'paid by Putin,' Tankie, etc.

founded 8 months ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] commiunism@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Relax, it's just a joke given how the image essentially is "communist is when many trains, capitalism is when one bad train". Making a reference to Mussolini, one of the most famous liberals of all time is always gonna be funny

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml -2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, it's a play on the fact that modern day China and its "socialist qualities" that ML's use to claim the country is socialist are remarkably similar if not identical to how fascist Italy worked.

That's what you had to say the other time you tried to compare fascist Italy with Socialist China, to the point of calling it "identical to how fascist Italy worked." This is of course wrong, Italy was driven by Private Ownership, the overwhelming majority of large firms and key industries were controlled by the bourgeoisie, and Mussolini murdered countless workers and crushed worker organizations. The opposite is true of the PRC, which is an economy dominated by Public Ownership.

Your comment is essentially "China has good railways? Mussolini cared about railways, and he was a fascist! Checkmate, commies!" It's extremely surface level to the point that any humor it may have had is thoroughly undermined.

[–] commiunism@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

My god, stop putting words in my mouth that I'm some kind of anti-communist as a whole due to not recognizing China as being Socialist. Sorry for viewing things through historical materialism and it not passing the sniff test I guess.

That comment was referring to the private model which, you're right, is not the exact same in execution but it's remarkably similar in principle given both systems' state dominance in key economic areas with the co-existence of private ownership.

Fascist Italy did hold a significant portion of state ownership in heavy industry/shipbuilding/banking/infrastructure by 1930, so it wasn't entirely driven by private ownership. China economy isn't necessarily public either (at least depending on who you ask) given how it's state owned with state acting as the surplus-extracting capitalist and having the final say rather than collectivized and owned by the workers.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I called you a "Left" Anticommunist, which I think is accurate. You're overwhelmingly negative about Actually Existing Socialism, as in you deny it as such, which I don't think is putting words in your mouth. The reasons you have given have actually rejected Historical Materialism, in our previous conversations you indicated that Socialism is a unique Mode of Production defined by the absence of all other forms of property relations, which entirely disregards the Dialectical aspect of Historical Materialism, ie how each Mode of Production emerges from the old, containing elements of both the old and the emerging society. There's no "sniff test" done by you, no Historical Materialism from what I've found, just US State Department friendly "Marxism."

Mussolini's Italy and Socialist China are not at all the same, which is again utter nonsense. In Fascist Italy, throughout the 1920s privatization of state industry was the norm. In the 30s, the instituti were formed, which brought the bourgeoisie into government unity, quite literally a state designed from the 1920s to strengthen the bourgeoisie now further entrenching them. This was said in 1934:

"While nearly everywhere else private property was bearing the major burdens and suffering from the hardest blows of the depression, in Italy, thanks to the actions of this Fascist government, private property not only has been saved, but has also been strengthened".

In China, this is obviously not the case. SOEs are publicly owned, as well as key industries, and in the medium firms the CPC has the golden share. The Public truly owns these, and the CPC has power over all Capitalists. Marxism is taught in school as the basis for ecomomics, and gradually the public sector is growing and exerting more power over the medium and smaller firms which are more privately owned. The CPC is not a "Capitalist," nor is the NPC. The funds they bring in through SOEs, taxation, and more get used for development and social services, Marx talked about this in Critique of the Gotha Programme:

But "all members of society" and "equal right" are obviously mere phrases. The kernel consists in this, that in this communist society every worker must receive the "undiminished" Lassallean "proceeds of labour."

Let us take first of all the words "proceeds of labour" in the sense of the product of labour; then the co-operative proceeds of labour are the total social product.

From this must now be deducted:

First, cover for replacement of the means of production used up.

Secondly, additional portion for expansion of production.

Thirdly, reserve or insurance funds against accidents, dislocations caused by natural calamities, etc.

These deductions from the "undiminished proceeds of labour" are an economic necessity and their magnitude is to be determined according to available means and forces, and partly by computation of probabilities, but they are in no way calculable by equity.

Further, Fascist Italy crushed Communists and worker organizations, Socialost China is run by Communists that strengthen worker organizations. Fascist Italy was designed to enrich the business owners, Socialist China works comprehensively towards strengthening pay year over year, eradicating poverty, and building towards higher stages of Socialism.

As a tangent, your comment implies cooperative property is the basis of Marxism, ie direct worker ownership, but Marx and Engels themselves rejected it as petite bourgeois relations. Exclusive ownership over a small portion of the economy cannot truly be considered abolition of private property, but protecting it. That's why Engels describes the Proletarian State gradually collrctivizing all property until class struggle is resolved through "lower stage Communism," or what we would call "Socialism," before the state withers into the "Administration of Things," which still wouldn't be direct worker ownership but publicly owned and planned production to fulfill use-value.

The first act in which the state really comes forward as the representative of the whole of society -- the taking possession of the means of production in the name of society -- is at the same time its last independent act as a state. The interference of the state power in social relations becomes superfluous in one sphere after another, and then dies away of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production. The state is not "abolished", it withers away. It is by this that one must evaluate the phrase "a free people's state" with respect both to its temporary agitational justification and to its ultimate scientific inadequacy, and it is by this that we must also evaluate the demand of the so-called anarchists that the state should be abolished overnight.

I take what you say seriously because your type of views ultimately end up working against Marxists globally, and are often magnified in liberal spaces. "Left" Anticommunism is something that deeply permeates Western Marxism, so it's important to call it out when I see it.