If freedom of press is one of the ways you can assess how fascist a state is, which it is, then I wonder which countries you consider better than the west. China? Russia? North Korea? Yeah, all places renown for not silencing journalists, poisoning political opponents or ruling with an iron fist. All places where you can just criticize the government, publicly, on prime TV, in the journals, without repercussions.

Also all places where they don't murder people for their political views, where they don't incarcerate them, torture them, send them to "re-education camps" or try to genocide entire ethnic groups in order to reduce dissent.

At the end of the day, "the west" remains the only place where you can actually go on tv, in the squares and protest against the government decisions, criticize them and even vote for the government to leave power. Is it perfect? Hell no, it's a disgusting system rigged by the rich and powerful, but it's still miles ahead of any totalitarian, authoritarian dictatorship.

Also it's not like China isn't buying lots of oil from Iran, a country which it's as much a savage murderous regime as Saudi Arabia, and from Russia, an imperialistic warmongering nation. And the reason it's clear, they need energy as much as the west needs energy. It's the reason why everyone puts up with those kinds of people.

The sooner we, as a species, can move away from oil, coal, gas and the likes, the better it will be for everyone. No more energy wars and a cleaner planet overall.

[–] zephyreks@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How much good has your criticism of the government done?

Do you have affordable housing? Are your healthcare needs covered? Is your taxpayer money going to help improve your life? Is the homeless issue solved? Has your government avoided going to war? Has your government fixed the rampant racial inequality in the prison system?

I say this like it's to an American, but really it applies to most Western countries.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, some of those point have improved in some countries of the western block. Not everyone is American btw. And I'm not saying the west is perfect, but when making a statement like "this is why the west is the worst" you also need to tell me who is better.

Lots of these issues are extremely present in other non-western countries as well and even more so. Or are you telling me that outside of western countries everyone else has affordable housing, free, good and available healthcare, a good and fair justice system, no racial inequality and no wars?

[–] zephyreks@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Sure, I'm not denying that conditions aren't perfect, but the argument being made is that having a democracy influences government policy to align with citizens' interests.

Looking at per-capita wealth, the West should be doing much better on these key issues under the assumption that the government exists to make people's lives better.

[–] rambaroo@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Who is doing so much better though? It seems like most countries have similar issues and it's not really a West vs East thing. Costa Rica seems like one of the nicer places to live in the world right now, but it's a "Western" country and it's also tiny.

I look at Eastern countries like Korea and Japan and see a ton of problems with workers being abused and authoritarian legal systems. Better than the US in some ways but worse in others. I would rather live in the US despite the worse healthcare cause I don't want to work 12 hours a day.

[–] zephyreks@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

US labour law exists in spite of democracy, not because of it. Also, I think it's hard to argue that Korea and Japan aren't Western democracies (in that, they value Western democratic ideals and structure their governments around the Western concept of democracy).

[–] Aria@lemmygrad.ml -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

China ended absolute poverty within their borders. That's 800 million people in a 40 year period.

[–] silkroadtraveler 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You’re a fool. CPC / CCP did no such thing. Plenty of starving homeless people in China to this day and zero social safety net.

[–] zephyreks@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

Tell me you haven't been to China without telling me you haven't been to China

[–] Aria@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Here are some of my sources.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1467-8489.12353
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0264837721001411
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S019739752200128X
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13892240601062488

Please provide your sources for starving homeless legions.

[–] Aria@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

See the problem with this logic is that you're weighing the west's real actions at best, or probably their white washed actions against fairytale versions of their adversaries who only exist in the west's propaganda. It's not hard to be better than someone written to be a caricature of evil.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 4 points 1 year ago

Or maybe it's the opposite and it's Chinese propaganda and Russian propaganda depicting a caricature of the west where everyone apparently is a Nazi, while suppressing all discourse about their evil doings? Maybe they're the ones who created this fairytale.

Have you ever considered that possibility? Or you really think Russia and China have never done any wrong and have no propaganda, they're just squeaky clean? Because let me tell you then...

[–] Blursty@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

China? Russia? North Korea? Yeah, all places renown for not silencing journalists, poisoning political opponents or ruling with an iron fist.

They're all better than the USA. The rest is what the US told you to think.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Yes, then try to go to Red Square in Moscow with a pro Ukraine sign, go to Tienanmen square with a sign against the occupation of Tibet or a sign against Xi. Even if you don't believe that, just to see what happens.

Then, do the same in any western country, with a sign against the local government or pro Russia or whatever you prefer. Just try it and report back please. Let's see who has more freedom of speech.

[–] rolandtb303@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Going with your example here, try to highlight Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine, and how there's lobbies for Israel that are basically worldwide (it's most prevalent in USA, AIPAC and CUFI being the big 2) spreading Pro-Israel propaganda. Israel's propaganda machine also has bot farms (called war rooms) distributing propaganda just like the Kremlin bots.

Try pointing all of that out, then see what happens then in the very country that touts its freedom of speech. (Hint: You get put on a list and you're smeared so bad your job is in jeopardy).

I suggest you read up on this, it's interesting. Here's a link for some reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lobby_in_the_United_States

Generally, pointing something out that a state doesn't want to be pointed out will involve the state cracking down on you, it's just state policy. Shouldn't be but it is. I support all dissidence.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm gonna tell you a secret, no one is going to arrest you for saying what you are saying in the USA. I'm pretty sure most Americans are not even that much into Israel to begin with. It's just a game of geopolitics.

And we are talking about the USA again. The west is not just the USA btw. Also, I've been to Israel, a couple times now, and that place is so fucked up, it's not even a joke.

This being said, have you tried doing what I said? Answer me clearly. Go to Red Square, protest against the occupation of Ukraine. Go to Tienanmen square, protest against the occupation of Tibet. Just try it.

I'll go to Rome or Paris or London to protest against Israel if you want, it's really not a big deal. Actually, it's more likely somebody would join me than arrest me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[–] rolandtb303@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

This being said, have you tried doing what I said? Answer me clearly. Go to Red Square, protest against the occupation of Ukraine.

Well in Russia's case, they just arrest everyone and put them in jail for 5-15 years and make up laws saying that you can't criticise the army/government or protest. So people stop protesting because they don't want to go to the shithole that is Russian jail, or even worse like in one case with a schoolgirl doing a non-approved drawing, the father being subject to CIA torture methods (i recall one of them he had the russian anthem blasted at him at ear-damaging volume, which is what the CIA done in Guantanamo bay).

Also, the elections are rigged in Russia (just so you know that information).

[–] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So it's OK to fund death squads and start war at every country that even remotely approaches socialism if you allow the illusion of freedom. Got it.

[–] Rinox@feddit.it 7 points 1 year ago

Russia does the same to countries in their sphere of influence who even think about approaching the west. I'm looking at Georgia, Moldavia and now Ukraine. Also they really like to meddle in Africa and the middle east through PMCs like Wagner, prop up local dictatorships and harvest labor and natural resources for themselves.

China is also trying their hand at the imperialistic game, although they are newer at it. They are trying to enter many African countries and stationing there Private Security Companies (which are paramilitaries still controlled by the Chinese government, because of course they are). In Asia they are also trying to increase their influence. In the South China Sea they are trying to claim other nations exclusive economic zones as their own while in the Indian Ocean they are trying to secure military ports by forcing 99 years leases (similar to the British lease on the port of Hong Kong). I believe this plan is called the string of pearls and I also believe Indians consider it a way of encircling them (China-Pakistan corridor, China-Myanmar corridor and in the ocean ports in Cambodia, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Djibouti and the Mauritius).

Let's say that all major powers have tried and keep trying their hand at imperialism. The only difference is that the US has a much bigger economic power than Russia and has been playing the game for a lot longer than modern China