this post was submitted on 05 Nov 2023
1243 points (93.2% liked)

Leftism

2072 readers
2 users here now

Our goal is to be the one stop shop for leftism here at lemmy.world! We welcome anyone with beliefs ranging from SocDemocracy to Anarchism to post, discuss, and interact with our community. We are a democratic community, and as such, welcome metaposts that seek to amend the rules through consensus. Post articles, videos, questions, analysis and more. As long as it's leftist, it's welcome here!

Rules:

Posting Expectations:

Sister Communities:

!abolition@slrpnk.net !antiwork@lemmy.world !antitrumpalliance@lemmy.world !breadtube@lemmy.world !climate@slrpnk.net !fuckcars@lemmy.world !iwwunion@lemmy.ml !leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com !leftymusic@lemmy.world !privacy@lemmy.world !socialistra@midwest.social !solarpunk@slrpnk.net Solarpunk memes !therightcantmeme@midwest.social !thepoliceproblem@lemmy.world !vuvuzelaiphone@lemmy.world !workingclasscalendar@lemmy.world !workreform@lemmy.world

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Wogi@lemmy.world -4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

To be clear, I have no issue with most people working while others do not and live off the system. I think most people will still want to do that something.

UBI isn't going to do that.

You can point to a handful of small scale studies that show more money works, and yes, on a small scale that is exactly what you'd expect to happen.

This does not work when everyone has that same income. It's not a matter of 99% of people making smart choices, because I concede that the vast majority of people with sudden access to additional income would spend it wisely.

The issues are twofold.

A) when the people who've made it their career to suck every penny out of every possible person know that there are suddenly more pennies to be had, they're going to raise prices. It's frankly foolish and shortsighted to expect prices to remain the same or only raise a little. This issue is not raised with small scale experiments. So regardless of their obvious success, they're not telling the whole story.

2). UBI does absolutely nothing to address the problems it's actually trying to solve. All it does is print a check every month as a bandaid for some serious problems that will certainly persist. You can't fix housing without building housing. Individual healthcare will still be tied to your job. College education will be prohibitively expensive and require staffing a lifetime of debt, and we'll still throw away an obscene amount of food, and people will still go hungry. The only thing that will probably get better is more children will have a secure diet.

And none of that assumes prices would inflate the way they absolutely will. Because even if UBI happened, the people who want all the money the working class has aren't suddenly going to think it's ok to leave dollars unspoken for.

The cost of college will steadily increase by about the amount kids are expected to have been able to save by the time they get there. Rent prices will go up to accommodate the new found freedom of spending. And that's the stuff you have a choice on. You think Comcast will see people with so many extra dollars a month and think "well our customers don't have another option but we'll let them keep all that money?"

UBI is just a ticket to absolute dependency on a government check for 99% of Americans, and less financial freedom.

Address the actual problems, don't just slap a half baked bandaid on it

[–] unfreeradical@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The claim of UBI leading to runaway inflation is a myth given by reactionary propaganda.

UBI would represent a major advance for the working class. Advocating against it seems impossible to reconcile with any attitude that is not accelerationist.

Much of your commentary seems to reproduce mythical tropes such as of the "welfare queen".

Seeking meaningful contribution to society is a robust human tendency. Doing so under constant threat from greedy employers is not necessary.

[–] 31337@sh.itjust.works 7 points 11 months ago

I would think UBI would be implemented to track inflation. I also assume it would be funded by progressive taxes, not just spinning up the printing presses (which would cause inflation). Effectively, it would be a wealth redistribution program cycling money from corporations and the rich down to the poor.

I really don't trust the government (which is pretty much captured by corporations) to implement it well though. They'd probably give everyone just enough money to barely survive, without health care, in a van down by the river or something.

[–] abraxas@sh.itjust.works -1 points 11 months ago

If you check my post history everywhere, I'm pretty anti-UBI. But the reasons you pitched are both problematic to me.

You "A" point... I don't like capitalism, but when there isn't a monopoly, increased customer-base doesn't have the effect you're thinking without scarcity. More people able to afford more means more businesses can compete for business. The price increases would come from paying for the increased worker leverage, and those wouldn't be drastic.

The opposite effect is true in some sectors. Studies suggest (consistently) that UBI cause so-called "wealth-flight", which reduces the value of housing and reduces the cost of living... But also reduces quality of life by reducing availability of things. The thing is, a little bit of socialism would counteract wealth-flight, as would a situation where the wealth is not in a position to leave freely.

Your "2" point is false. There are a lot of MAJOR cons to UBI, but studies suggest UBI would have a positive effect on housing affordability and worker leverage. Other than healthcare, your concerns don't seem to match the models and the studies. My add-on concern, however, is addiction. Poverty starvation isn't a risk under most UBI plans, but addict starvation still is.

When "what can I afford to pay" is one of the dominant market forces on anything but luxury, capitalism becomes dangerously fragile and businesses know it. They want to maximize profit, but they do so against demand and competition.

And none of that assumes prices would inflate the way they absolutely will

Most economists don't think UBI would cause all that much inflation. Increasing a customer-base is not the same as increasing demand. There's no addition of scarcity. Food prices don't go up if we don't run out of food - and we have so much food going to waste that isn't going to happen. Same with housing and rent. The question isn't "how much can the sucker afford to pay me", it's "how much can we get for this?". Affordability is only one factor in that, and generally considered a "problem" to all parties when that factor applies. So long as businesses are not MORE consolidated (see above UBI concerns) prices are still market-driven - driven by competition and acceptability.

It's valid to not LIKE capitalism. I hate it. But we should still understand it before criticizing things.

The cost of college will steadily increase by about the amount kids are expected to have been able to save by the time they get there

This is simply not factual. One thing people miss is that college profit margins have been on a slow decline (and in the single-digits since 2016). They're NOT charging more based on how much they think they can sucker out of people. They're charging what they do based on the friction of "making enough money to thrive" and "charging low enough that people are willing to come here". Yes, cost of college might go up slightly, but not in the way you're talking. Again, the issue is that "affordability" is a terrible market force and rarely the one these types of businesses care about.

UBI is just a ticket to absolute dependency on a government check for 99% of Americans, and less financial freedom

There is no study or model that says UBI will give us LESS financial freedom. The real argument is that it won't give more financial freedom to most Americans, and the cost is prohibitive for that limited gain.

Address the actual problems, don’t just slap a half baked bandaid on it

Short of "no questions asked unemployment benefits for life", there aren't really any solutions to many of the problems on the table. Ultimately, all Americans, all humans, deserve a life of all necessities AND some luxuries.

At this time, nobody is seriousliy trying to solve for luxuries except UBI, and nobody is seriously trying to solve for organic worker-leverage except UBI (unions will never be the full answer).