this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
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TEL AVIV—Israeli forces have taken control of much of northern Gaza—at least the parts that are above ground. Beneath the strip’s devastated urban landscape, Hamas still reigns.

The war is entering a new phase, as the Israeli military takes its fight underground and into Gaza’s legendary subterranean tunnel network.

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[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The whole argument about whether they are or aren't in any given spot is moot. Israel isn't differentiating between Hamas and civilians, and none of this is an actual defensive operation.

If Netanyahu wanted to actually protect Israelis, the obvious ways to do so are to:

  1. Staff the Gaza boarder crossings. They were largely unmanned, as they troops were relocated to assist in illegally annexing the West Bank.
  2. Replace Hamas. Netanyahu repeatedly supported Hamas because he said that their rule in Gaza prevented the PLO from negotiating for peace.
  3. Stop trying to ignite terrorism in the West Bank. The whole point of all of this is to TRY to create violence that justifies land theft. He's literally not trying to keep Israeli's safe.
  4. Just negotiate peace. He's been in charge for nearly a generation, and his primary legacy has been eroding civil rights for both Israelis AND Palestinians.

It's just maddening how we get focused on the trees instead of the forest: Netanyahu has been an authoritarian war criminal for decades, and under his control this situation will never lead to peace or security, because that's never been the goal.

[–] Hatsune_Miku@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

and how do you get the hostages back and launch a counteroffensive because Hamas broke the ceasefire that was in place?

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't understand what you're asking. Can you rephrase it?

[–] Hatsune_Miku@lemmy.world -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Israel's extreme response is because Hamas killed roughly one thousand innocent lives and also captured civilian and military hostages. How do you get them back while responding to the attack?

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net -1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You pick up the phone and negotiate a hostage exchange.

You say, meet us at this spot tomorrow with 10 of the oldest and youngest hostages you've got and we'll do the same. If it goes well, we'll talk about doing another exchange the next day.

That's what Hamas wants. That's what they've usually taken and returned hostages for. Hamas released two hostages so far in the weeks this has been going on. How come someone negotiated for 2 and then stopped there?

[–] DolphinMath@slrpnk.net -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Hamas:

“No thanks. We want a war that maximizes civilian deaths for the purpose of creating a larger conflict in the region so as to bring support to the eradication of the Zionist State.”

[–] andrewrgross@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What's crazy about this is that regardless of whether we agree on whether Hamas would participate in a hostage exchange, you're still acknowledging that the current response benefits them, and risks a spiral of violence that draws in the whole region or world.

[–] DolphinMath@slrpnk.net 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I believe Hamas would agree to a small hostage exchange in a slow and drawn out manner. In the past, Israel literally used an exchange rate of 1000-1 for prisoner swaps. Hamas knows the value of hostages and won’t settle for anything close to proportional swaps. They also need to retain the hostages in order to prolong the conflict and appeal to sympathetic neighboring countries for assistance.

Netanyahu and Hamas both benefit from open conflict and neither believe in a two state solution. It’s a recipe for disaster. The best case scenario is that Israel manages to cripple Hamas, Netanyahu is removed from office, and then a new Israeli Government helps to rebuild Gaza. The worst case scenario is a broad conflict in the middle-east with nuclear weapons in the mix.

[–] DolphinMath@slrpnk.net 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Netanyahu:

“Oh good, I wanted a reason to use the military.”

[–] prettybunnys@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

You’re both right.

Nobody is the good guy here.

[–] Zippit@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

By trading them in for Palestinian kids and women rotting away in Israeli jails.

Also, reform the judiciary branch so Palestinians aren't judged by 1 Israeli judge with a conviction rate of 98%. Maybe a council of three judges: Israeli, Palestinian and Christian. And throw an atheist in there too.

Counteroffensive Israel fucked up that plan the minute they also went bloodlust and revenge massacre. It's too late now with so many killed. You can expect a second Hamas with a different name to attack Israel within 15/20ish years max. Unless you change.

Normally cooler heads should have prevailed but they're stuck with Netanyahu.

You should have enforced your borders, so nothing gets in. At the same time, you should have tightened and upped diplomatic relations with everyone else in the region instead of alienating and threatening them. Chances were, they would have helped you get the Hamas military wing labeled as terrorists in the region and made no place safe for them. No one wants to see dead civilians. (Granted this doesn't count for Hezbollah).

Negotiating a deal for the hostage exchanges and knowing Hamas, it would have taken months or years maybe, but most of them would have made it out alive. And this will give you the time you'll need.

Use your intelligence services to get every name and face of the Hamas that killed civilians.Once your list is complete, then you start hunting them down. Just like the Mossad did with ex-nazi's. No matter how long it takes.

Make a long-term plan to get the Palestinians not on your side really, but on their OWN side. Free from Israel AND Hamas. Give them a better life, let them prosper, live their lives, raise their kids and grow old. You don't want them and they don't want you, so a 2 state is the only solution. With each country having its own governance.

Once people value their lives and families and have something to live for, they won't be sucked into this rage, hate and hopelessness and join something that'll be just another Hamas.

Normal people don't join terrorists/freedom fighter causes, desperate people do.