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this post was submitted on 16 Dec 2023
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If by 'contributed to the movement' you mean 'Catalans are using their strong economy as an excuse to disrupt Span's internal politics and demand more money and privileges for themselves to the detriment of the entire country' then yes, you're right. Not sure how that does make it any better.
Also, it's not their matter. It's Spanish matter.
If you were the one paying to keep most of the lights on, you might reconsider your position in the system as well. And yes, that is why we have political discourse; I wouldn't word it or see it like you do, but again, yes, economic factors can be a bargaining chip in such political problems.
For the Catalans I have spoken to, it's more a cultural and historical thing that is amplified by the economic and political situation. Also, none of them believe or want to (fully) part with Spain, they want more self-determination and be more independent from Madrid but not leave Spain, much more like a state in the USA. But I have only spoken to two Catalan people about this issue, so it's not a huge sample size.
Please, stop spreading Catalan propaganda. You're clearly ignorant about this subject. Spain is divided into Autonomous Communities. Each region has a lot of autonomy, exactly like in USA. Catalonia has even more autonomy than other regions. They have their own police force, healthcare system and parliament. The only things managed by central government are the ones they can't be trusted with like taxes. It's been proven that Catalan government defrauded a lot of money to pay for the illegal independence movement, clearly they are not fit to collect taxes. What they want now is full independence so that they can steal even more money without any oversight. Catalan parliament voted and passed a law declaring full independence (which was later declared null by the courts). To say now that they don't want to part with Spain is simply a lie. That's exactly what they tried to do.
The don't pay to keep the lights on, that's another lie. 90% of their production is sold in Spain. They make money because the rest of Spain is a good market that buys their products. Without Spain they would not be able to sell their products and grow their economy. This is basic economy, really. To imply that they are the only ones working and they somehow support the rest of poor Spain is simply disgusting. Please, educate yourself before writing about this subject and spreading lies.
Bro, I'm not engaged enough for this... again, I don't argue for or against separation. I never said it wasn't a feudal system. I said the two Catalans I spoke to said they want more freedom within the feudal system, namely more self-determination like the states in the USA, not a separation from Spain.
If you really think the INE is faking numbers to fit Catalan propaganda, then I don't think you are able to make factual discussions or statements regarding the economic situation of this issue.
Just a quote from the INE to help underline my point:
"This statistical operation adopts the methodology contained in the European System of Economic Accounts (ESA-2010) in compliance with the provisions of Regulation (EU) No. 549/2013 of the European Parliament and of the Council, of 21 May, as do the rest of the statistical operations that make up the Spanish National Accounts, which guarantees the international comparability of its results."
Seriously, which part are you not getting? I'm not saying that Catalonia doesn't have stronger economy when compared with the rest of Spain. I'm saying it's normal, it happens in every country, it's not because there's something special about Catalans and it doesn't give them any special rights. Which part don't you understand?
What you do is come here and repeat lies spread by Catalonia while saying "I don't know, I just heard that...". What's the point of that? You're just helping spread misinformation.
I'm not understanding the part where you accuse me of spreading misinformation. I provided the official source from Spain, an anecdote, and sources for each of my points.
So, brother, do we agree then? Is Catalonia the economic motor of Spain? So, who's getting whose money then?
What's your source for the claim that Catalonia doesn't want to fully part with Spain? I read the actual law passed by Catalan parliament and I know that what they did is declare full independence. That's my source. What you wrote here was a lie, it's as simple as that. You would know it's a lie if you knew anything about this subject.
I already said that Catalonia has stronger economy than rest of Spain but the claim that this is their money and they support rest of Spain is another lie. Are you really unable to separate those two claims? I already explained many times why one can be true and the other can be a lie at the same time. I can't explain it any better so if you still don't get it let's just end this discussion here.
Again, I do not argue for or against separation, XD.
very basic summary: You said they steal money; I ask how. All these sources say otherwise. You said these sources are propaganda; I asked how is the argument based on the data from the INE propaganda. You did not respond and insisted that people I spoke to are lying because I don't have a "source" for their OPINION.
Bro, what's your point? No one is out to get you or is interested in internal Spanish politics enough to intentionally spread propaganda in the comment section of a random Lemmy post that maybe 80 people scrolled by, most likely not even living in Europe or near Spain and don't care.
Your sources don't say otherwise because they don't say nothing about who deserves what money. I don't know how to put it more simply. Just because one region of a country generates money it doesn't mean they deserve all of it.
You keep talking about Catalonia being the economic powerhouse of Spain AND about Catalonia giving money to Spain at the same time. That's the propaganda. It's not about the first part. It's about equating those two things: making money and deserving all of it.
How does Catalonia steal money from other regions? By forcing the central government to give them money they don't deserve. If you don't agree we can talk about which region deserves what but instead you're just repeating that Catalonia makes more money. I never disputed that. It's about what they actually deserve.
Also, I didn't say the people you spoke to lied about the economy. They lied about not wanting full independence. I explained why. How hard it is to understand this?