Gom Jabbar always seemed like a pointless task. Are you "human" by being able to willingly withstand physical pain? Some people have higher pain tolerances and willpower; doesn't make them beasts.

[–] MudMan@kbin.social 7 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I think the idea was that you knew that it'sa test and that you'd die if you remove the hand, so it's less willpower and more reasoning over instinct/fear, at least in theory. You have to presume the box is at least tuned to different people's pain thresholds or whatever.

Also, the text pretty much says that Mohiam is doing it wrong more or less on purpose:

"Enough," the old woman muttered. "Kull wahad! No woman child ever withstood that much. I must've wanted you to fail."

If you give the benefit of the doubt that Herbert figured out the practicalities and wasn't going by rule of cool (which he absolutely was) the implication is that the person administering the test has some control of the itnensity and you're supposed to deal with some pain you're supposed to hold, not become convinced that your hand is a charred stump like Paul is.

That, and the movie verisons amp the whole thing up a lot, so it comes across a bit differently.

[–] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I thought it was less about the charred stump and more of another activation of his powers. Turning the inner eye, conquering it, knowing it won't come out a burning stump, because his whole arm and body would be that way if it was actually on fire.

[–] MudMan@kbin.social 2 points 9 months ago

Well, it can't be that in the context of the story, because as it's presented, they give this test to pretty much everybody they train, including Jessica (although Mohiam clarifies that "seldom" to men).

Don't get me wrong Paul and all the other Dune protagonists don't need much encouragement to go supersaiyan on your ass, and this often comes in similar circumstances, but this particular first example seems to mostly be Paul taking his finals and things getting intense because his examiner turns the dial to eleven. In the book it isn't even that big of a deal, he just says the litany once, has the vision of his hand getting melted for like a paragraph and Moiham goes "phew, I went a bit hard on you there for a second and poofing away".

Also, this doesn't relate to anything else, but I went back to find the passage for this and man, both her and Paul are such little shits to each other in this bit. He calls her "old woman" and threatens to have her killed, she mocks him for being so privileged he has to know about poisons as a a teenager... They're so sassy, and neither movie quite nails that part.

[–] skulblaka@startrek.website 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It was always more about the triumph of the mind over the body. When the body is screaming to run away, the mind retains control. That is what makes someone Human.

[–] nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca 4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

It's an interesting definition of humanity, but certainly not a definitive one.

[–] skulblaka@startrek.website 1 points 9 months ago

In the real world, sure.

In the context of Dune, it is a question of whether you can maintain your logic in the face of pain or danger, or whether you will be ruled by your instincts when push comes to shove. And that question is a vitally important one when taken in the context of choosing a new leader or ensuring that someone (in this case Paul Atriedes) is able to handle the pressures of their given task. An animal will be ruled by its instincts while a human can overcome them by force of will. If you are not a human then you are an animal. Animals can still be treated with respect, but they are unfit for leadership roles because a frightened animal driven by fight-or-flight response is unpredictable and dangerous. A cornered king can be reasoned with, but a cornered animal will gnaw its own leg off to escape a trap.

[–] HyonoKo@lemmy.ml 1 points 9 months ago

Put like this sounds pretty lame yes.