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For Hamas, yes. For the Palestinian people, no.
Are you trying to suggest that Israel is not doing genocide against the Palestinians?
I don't think Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people. Israel is trying to take out Hamas, but Hamas is using the Palestinian people as human shields.
That is their strategy. Hamas spent 15 years digging in to Gaza, including under hospitals. Then they commit an extremely provocative atrocity, using rape as a weapon of terror, which was guaranteed to rile up the Israelis for war. Just like Osama bin Laden did to the Americans. And then the Hamas leadership flees to Qatar where they can watch the chaos unfold. It's diabolical. But it has been done before.
What about the west bank? What about the fact that Gaza is basically an open air prison?
Israel forces are also using the Palestinian people as human shields.
Hamas is obviously terrible but so is Israel.
What about...what about...whataboutism.
You didn't address a single one of my points. I'm not going to defend Israeli expansion of settlements in the West Bank. That is obviously a bad faith move on the part of the Israeli right wing and Jewish fanatics. Gaza being an "open air prison"...well, Gaza is that way because of Hamas. Israel distrusts Hamas for good reason. October 7 was just like 9/11 and was calculated to be that way.
You'd think if they mistrusted Hamas, they'd stop funding them...its almost like they see a benefit to dealing with a terrorist organization instead of the PLA.
Yes, you are right. If Netanyahu funded Hamas as a cynical way to make peace LESS likely, he is a bastard. I mean, he's a bastard anyway for lots of reasons, but I agree with you. Netanyahu and his crazy right wing regime need to go. We definitely need regime change in both Israel and Gaza, preferably at the ballot box.
That wasn't what-aboutism, as it wasn't a distraction to a separate topic. It was a list of items that are potential examples of the topic.
Okay, you're right. I didn't read the comment that way the first time around, but I see what you're saying. The settlements in the West Bank could, arguably, be seen as evidence of creeping genocide. I think there is a better explanation for the situation in Gaza, though.
That is the narrative that the zionists and their colonialists allies propose. It's more appropriate to call it propaganda. It is crucial to believe this because otherwise the mass killing of civilians and children turns into the Genocide that it is.
Check out an Amnesty International article:
Gaza: At EU Foreign Affairs Council, Ministers should call for an immediate ceasefire - 22 January 2024
And an older one from the United Nations article that calls things as they are:
Gaza: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people 16 November 2023
I'm am aware that some people call Israel's actions in Gaza genocide. The crucial missing element, though, is intent. If Israel was intent on actually genociding the Palestinians, far more Gazans would be dead, and Israel would also be killing Palestinians in Israel proper and the West Bank. If, however, Israel's intent is to root out a well-entrenched terrorist group hiding in the civilian population, it would be look pretty much exactly like the current situation. Are Israel's actions in Gaza perfect? No. But they are more consistent with a difficult rooting out operation than genocide. In my opinion.
You’re trying to suggest killing civilians through gross indifference to life is somehow better than doing it as an actual goal.
Yes, definitely. The laws of war hinge on the difference. Bombs and artillery do not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants, which is why there are always civilians killed in war. And yet, the use of bombs and artillery is not a war crime.
Now, the principle of proportionality is important here. In the laws of war, the degree of destruction and civilian casualties has to be reasonably proportional to the military objective. For example, to take an extreme example, it would not be generally considered reasonable to knock down a high rise full of civilians just to take out one sniper. That's why Israel does that roof-knocking thing they do. Each military action has to be evaluated on its merits to determine if it is a war crime. Many of Hamas's actions have been war crimes (e.g. the use of rape as a weapon of war, hiding combatants among civilians, etc), and I have no doubt that Israel has committed war crimes as well in particular situations. But specific instances of war crimes does not automatically mean they are committing genocide.
FYI Israel is no longer doing roof knocking
Yeah, I guess roof-knocking isn't feasible during this phase of the war. Hamas certainly is creating moral dilemmas by hiding among civilians.
When you step back and look at it objectively, one has to admit that Iran and the various Islamist groups they sponsor, like Hamas, have quite a brilliant strategy. Just as Hamas cannot defeat the IDF militarily, no one can topple the US and the broader West through conventional military means. The only way to win against the West is to exploit the divisions in our society by creating moral dilemmas. Events like 9/11 and October 7 are calculated to goad us into over-reaction, which generates moral dilemmas, and over-extension, which drains our coffers and our will. The US is particularly vulnerable to this strategy because Americans see themselves as exceptional and less susceptible to the forces of history that affect other nations. This is foolish, of course.
Israel created Hamas
That's a conspiracy theory.
Nope. The following article is from the famous israeli outlet called Haaretz.
A Brief History of the Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance
[edit: I shorten the quote cause actually this is the wrong article in relation to how Israel helped the creation of Hamas. Please see comment bellow with 3 links for relevant info.]
I don't disagree that Netanyahu and his right wing coalition were complicit with Hamas, and that regime change is needed. I've said that in other comments in this thread.
I push back against the simplistic statement that "Israel created Hamas". It is way more complicated than that. Hamas was founded in 1987 as a splinter group of the Muslim Brotherhood. Also, Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people, not the Israeli government. And, they are part of a wider radical Islamist movement, along with ISIS and the Houthis, that are sponsored by Iran. You could just as well say that Hamas was "created" by Iran.
I also push back because simply saying that Israel "created" Hamas, as if it were Israel's fault alone, implies a lack of agency on the part of Hamas. Even if Netanyahu and his nutty right wing coalition provided some funding for Hamas, it was Hamas itself that carried out the raping and murdering on October 7. They own that atrocity, even if many other actors are complicit in it.
If that was the case you would have said something like:
No, Hamas was funded by Israel, not created.
and not
So please don't try to bs me.
Btw, here are a few more related articles:
EU's Borrell says Israel financed creation of Gaza rulers Hamas - Reuters
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces - Times of Israel
“Divide and Rule”: How Israel Helped Start Hamas to Weaken Palestinian Hopes for Statehood - Democracy Now
How nice of you to tell me what I should have said to make you believe me. Charming.
I said would, you read should.
Bye-bye now.
I must say that I don't understand why people like yourself always jump to questioning people's motives and honesty rather than engaging directly with the argument. It is basically an ad hominem attack.
The argument started by person A stating a fact and person B claiming it's a conspiracy.
I stepped in and said it's no conspiracy.
Person B says, I didn't mean conspiracy, I meant it's more complicated
I respond to person B if you meant complicated, you would have said something along those lines. Instead you said conspiracy theory.
Calling out bs is not an attack on the person, it's a reflection to what they say.
It is not a "fact" that Israel "created" Hamas. Providing some funding 20 years after their founding is not creating. Perhaps calling that a "conspiracy theory" was not the best choice of words. Clarifying what I meant with further conversation is not "bs". Questioning my integrity rather than engaging with the argument is an ad hominem attack.
You put people in a concentration camp for 75 years and they become extremists, that's on you
Also there is proof Israel ensured Hamas won the election