this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
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SneerClub

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Hurling ordure at the TREACLES, especially those closely related to LessWrong.

AI-Industrial-Complex grift is fine as long as it sufficiently relates to the AI doom from the TREACLES. (Though TechTakes may be more suitable.)

This is sneer club, not debate club. Unless it's amusing debate.

[Especially don't debate the race scientists, if any sneak in - we ban and delete them as unsuitable for the server.]

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the effectively altruistic AI's fans are gonna pipe bomb a Planned Parenthood (forum.effectivealtruism.org)
submitted 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) by dgerard@awful.systems to c/sneerclub@awful.systems
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[–] self@awful.systems 1 points 11 months ago (1 children)

There is a good case that abortion is morally impermissible – or at least there is significant moral uncertainty.

it’s actually kind of rare that one of these loses me in the first sentence (cause TESCREALs don’t know about brevity so usually their point is buried under an avalanche of words) but here we are. the only people who can’t imagine a morally permissible abortion just don’t give a fuck about women

[–] maol@awful.systems 2 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Moral uncertainty is reason to become pro-life? We do morally uncertain things every day. That's no reason to legislate.

[–] maol@awful.systems 1 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

"Put another way, even if one believes abortion is permissible, it likely remains a comparable problem to any problem of infant mortality – but with even more lost life-years, and occurring on a much larger scale than infant mortality".

Well, it isn't comparable, because abortion prevents forced birth, and forced birth is a form of torture. As indeed is being forced to care for a child in poverty.

"Other responses to Thomson highlight various other disanalogies between pregnancy and the violinist situation: In most cases of abortion, the woman is responsible for both the child’s neediness and their intimate biological relationship with the woman – unlike the violinist case. Other responses to Thomson highlight various other disanalogies between pregnancy and the violinist situation: In most cases of abortion, the woman is responsible for both the child’s neediness and their intimate biological relationship with the woman – unlike the violinist case."

Bit of a bold statement, and likely untrue. It is impossible for a woman to know even when having unprotected sex if it will result in a pregnancy. Contraceptive technologies fail. And what about the responsibility of the father? It takes two.

"n the case of abortion, the woman is the mother of the child[6] – unlike the violinist case.[7]"

Ok, this is meaningless.

"The violinist is in an unnatural situation and being hooked up to the stranger is an unnatural position – by contrast, the fetus is exactly where she is supposed to be in her ‘natural habitat’."

Not in my womb, it isn't, motherfucker!

Quite a lot of pregnancies end early in miscarriage.

[–] maol@awful.systems 1 points 11 months ago

"6)deaths from abortion are a function of infrastructure, not law: pro-life countries/regions with good healthcare (e.g. Chile, Poland, Malta, South Korea (until recently), Ireland (until recently), North Africa, UAE, and almost all of Europe pre-legalisation) have very few, in many cases zero, deaths from abortion ."

Despite our good (?) healthcare, there was a high-profile death due to lack of abortion access in Ireland: Savita Halappanavar. And that's despite the fact that from 1996 (?) to 2018 abortion was legally permitted to "protect the life of the mother", if a panel of doctors agreed her life was in danger. In addition to Savita's death there was a case in which a raped, pregnant teenager became suicidal, but because doctors did not agree she should have an abortion, she was committed and put on suicide watch. How's that for harm? Women who travelled abroad for abortions also experienced significant medical and psychological harm as a result: consider the case of A, B and C vs. Ireland.

[–] maol@awful.systems 1 points 11 months ago

"While there is (in my view) a commendable case for opposing abortion (an action I leave intentionally broad/vague)"

Yeah you would want to, wouldn't you. Don't want any specifics to crack your veneer of moral righteousness.

[–] Amoeba_Girl@awful.systems 1 points 11 months ago

Well, it isn’t comparable, because abortion prevents forced birth, and forced birth is a form of torture. As indeed is being forced to care for a child in poverty.

Fun fact, abortion also prevents infanticide. Prolifers either don't realise how pragmatic humans are, or are really into killing actual babies.