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Kenneth Smith ‘struggled for life’ for 22 minutes in Alabama nitrogen gas execution: Updates
(www.independent.co.uk)
this post was submitted on 26 Jan 2024
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Weird, everything I saw on Lemmy until yesterday was about how humane and painless this method is, without any suffering. Seems that the tone has changed
as with anything, it can be fucked up... and leave it to this backwoods state to fuck it up.
like if he chose 'firing squad' and the squad start from the legs up. ya know, for target practice. go 2nd amendment.
The nitrogen assisted suicide used a different delivery method. The mistake was using a mask for the execution.
So then what do you use?
Many commenters here have addressed it - use an airtight chamber or pod, and flood it with nitrogen to evacuate other gases. The problem was likely that the inmate was able to breathe in some oxygen through gaps around the mask.
Not enough attention was paid to the delivery mechanism and most of the attention was on Nitrogen gas in the abstract. The lawsuit was a total scattershot approach of throwing everything at the wall in order to delay or prevent this execution. It made it too easy to focus on the things that were absolutely wrong and not examine the delivery mechanism more closely.
And I'll own my part in that - the articles being posted contained a lot of bad science that stood to be corrected. The fact that the mechanism for delivery was a tiny mouth & nose mask that didn't dilute or remove the CO2 wasn't explained - probably because of the clear lack of understanding of how Nitrogen asphyxiation works.
Like, I might argue cottage cheese is safe and humane to feed someone, but when you fire a tub of it out of a cannon into someone's face, I will concede there are ways to do it inhumanely if you are sufficiently stupid or determined, but that shouldn't detract from the argument.
Nitrogen asphyxiation in and of itself is a humane way to go and should be preserved as an option while capital punishment remains. However, it must be performed correctly.
It's humane when done properly, this one sounds botched. Which was probably the point, given that cruelty is part of the death sentence system.
If the person is aware it is happening it can't be humane because they can hold their breath and will still get the effects of suffocation. Plus the whole awareness of being killed.
Oxygen deprivation won't kill you fast enough to not notice what is going on if you know it is going to happen.
That's the point of using nitrogen though. If you replace all the breathable air around a person, they're not going to notice anything is wrong. The pain and distress mostly comes from suffocation and suffocation comes from excess CO2 in the lungs and body. If there is no gaseous exchange in the lungs, there will be no suffocation, you just pass out and eventually die of hypoxia.
Nitrogen is used in Switzerland for assisted suicide, you go in a sealed pod, and at the press of a button all air is replaced by nitrogen and you die.
If the person knows they are in a chamber to be put to death and they want to live then they will know something is wrong and will try to hold their breath.
Mask or room are not stressful if the person does want to die or doesn't know what is going on. You have to breathe willingly for the process to work without stress.
So don't let them know the exact moment that the nitrogen is coming.
Look, I hate the death penalty and I think it should never be used. But if it's going to be done and there's no way I can stop that, I can at least recognize that there are ways it could be done that are relatively humane. Nitrogen gas asphyxiation is relatively humane, but as always with the caveat that you don't hopelessly botch the attempt.
These Alabama yahoos seem to be fundamentally incapable of not botching their execution attempts.
Executions have specific steps that include setting a time and place that cannot be bypassed for surprise. Don't forget that it is a common practice for a person of faith to be present, and it isn't like you can spring something on them too and there is no reason that they would need to keep the surprise a secret.
How about we just stop killing people? He was in jail for decades already, what did making him suffer a terrible death accomplish?
So change that step. Why is that particular step impossible to alter? You're making up rules specifically to make the execution more traumatic.
That would of course be the ideal outcome. But the problem is that many jurisdictions, such as Alabama, are insistent on it. So if they're going to do it and we can't stop them from doing it, why not at least try to get them to do it in a humane manner?
All of my advice to Alamaba would be prefaced with "you shouldn't kill this guy at all, but if I can't stop you, then you should at least..." And nitrogen gas asphyxiation is definitely near the top of my "you should at least..." suggestions. As long as you do it right. The victim having sufficient forewarning to hold his breath is doing it wrong.
First off, the date and time of the execution is scheduled ahead of time. A random time to execute is even more cruel than a set time because it means the person is just waiting for something to happen. It also fucks with any kind of support for the person dying and any tracking of the steps taken to ensure it is done properly.
No, you are suggesting making changes that would be impossible or at least harder to implement than just not executing people.
A real solution would be to administer an injection that knocks him out and then turn on the nitrogen so he would be asleep when it started. But that requires a trained medical professional, and if that was a possibility they wouldn't have fucked up trying to kill him with lethal injection in 2022.
Stop buying the state propaganda to justify executions when they keep fucking it up. You are the one promoting suffering.
I'm not talking about randomizing the date. I'm talking about randomizing the exact second when the switch is thrown. Executions aren't timed to the second. And even if they were, change that. Again, there isn't some kind of immutable law of physics at work here. The rules are all made up. If the goal is to execute someone humanely and the rules are preventing that, then change the rules.
Did you know, for example, that in Japan a prisoner who has been sentenced to death will only be informed that "today's the day" on the morning of the day the execution is to take place? And that his family and the general public aren't informed until after it has been done? As I said, these things are not laws of physics.
Really. You think it's hard to not tell a guy when you're about to turn a valve?
You know what also "knocks him out"? Anoxia.
Also, the whole reason this mess happened in the first place is because Alabama previously spent five hours trying and failing to give this guy a lethal injection. Your idea of being more humane is to go back to the method that they even more flagrantly and horrifyingly botched in the first place.
When have I ever said that an execution was justified? Go ahead and comb through my comment history on this subject, it feels like every second comment of mine has included the disclaimer that I disapprove of the death penalty and don't think it should ever be applied.
The point of this argument is to advocate for the most humane approach if you're going to execute someone anyway. If I can't stop it, then I at least want it to be done humanely.
There's a saying that I wish was more common, "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." The perfect solution to all this would be to never execute anyone. But that's apparently not going to happen in the near future, certainly not in Alabama, and so we're left hoping for the "good" outcome rather than the "perfect" one.
Exactly 100% not true.
Isn't it the same way they let sick people kill themselves? I remember seeing a recent story about someone using a new capsule. They get inside it; it fills with nitrogen; and they drift away.
I'm no fan of the death penalty. Just genuinely interested in whether I'm correctly remembering that the best known voluntary method matches the new execution method.
Apparently they thought they could skimp on the capsule and just use a mask. Cheap and evil.
The key difference is that you need something to be actively removing the CO2, not just replacing the O2 with nitrogen.
Suffocation, as in the choking and suffering, is caused by carbon dioxide buildup, not lack of oxygen.
In humane suicide or confined space accidents, there's no oxygen but you can freely get rid of CO2. It's why workers test before going into sewer pipes and wear safety harnesses and sensors, and setup ventilation hoses. Without them they wouldn't even notice they were dying until they got loopy and fell over.
Method is important. The medium is the same (nitrogen) But putting an "oxygen" mask on someone and plumbing it to nitrogen is a different method than putting someone in a chamber that is sealed and the oxygen and exhaled carbon dioxide* are quickly displaced.
*Carbon dioxide is what makes you feel like you're suffocating.
Sick people want to die and will breathe normally, which is what makes it painless. Resisting causes the suffering.
I'm still here saying that. Alabama fucked up something that should've been dead simple. Sealed mask with a one way valve, hooked directly up to nitrogen. That or an anoxic chamber for the victim. I'm against capital punishment but if it's going to happen, nitrogen is still the way to go.
Yeah. Turns out they shouldn't have used an untested execution method. Especially when the judge made a blatantly unconstitutional decision to kill a man anyways. Clearly Alabama has no problem testing on humans.
It's a well-tested method, they botched the methodology.
https://www.ladbible.com/news/us-news/kenneth-smith-execution-euthanasia-pod-creator-193400-20240125
Well shit, they should have at least used a full face covering or a hood at minimum.
Where does it say in that article that it's well-tested or that they botched it?
Considering he's an expert on the matter, I assume he would have said if these past events he witnessed went poorly.