this post was submitted on 27 Jan 2024
518 points (85.1% liked)
Data Is Beautiful
6884 readers
218 users here now
A place to share and discuss data visualizations. #dataviz
(under new moderation as of 2024-01, please let me know if there are any changes you want to see!)
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Grabbing the bird by the neck would probably count as an abusive behavior, the second half of your definition of masculinity. You're very quick to compare whatever treatment you've received (I haven't really seen anything) to physical violence, which probably feeds into why a lot of people you interact with come off as so hostile to you and your beliefs.
It wasn't all that long ago that women gained the right to vote, so it should be pretty obvious that women had fewer privileges than men just 100 years ago. Time marches on, and things are more equal now, but there's still a measurable difference in pay by gender just for an example.
I try not to listen to Jordan Peterson, but if you're saying things in line with his general philosophy, it doesn't really matter whether or not you want to be pushing his talking points or if you even know you're doing it. I can't say for sure you are, but I would generally associate this kind of "women are actually more privileged then men" talk as at least similar.
You meet people that say dumb and hurtful things all the time. My own grandfather once told me that immigrants dying while trying to cross the border was a good thing because it would send a message to others that they aren't welcome and they shouldn't try to come. But that doesn't mean you always need to take them seriously and apply the absolute worst things you've heard to a larger group of (mostly unrelated) people. But also, are these "locker room chats" the harmless kind, or the fantasizing/reminiscing about sexual assault kind?
Alright, what does "fascism" mean to you? Because it seems to just be "insulting a thing I like/believe in". And what does it mean to "cancel" someone? Because all that can happen to you here is you get some downvotes, unless you do something to break the rules.
Fragile masculinity means that a person is so insecure about their "manliness" that they go too far in the other direction and overcompensate, usually to the point of being either annoying or actively harmful in some way.
Do you want to describe any of these privileges? I'd hate to keep making assumptions about your beliefs.
There are plenty of jobs that aren't involved with construction. I'd be willing to bet that most men don't work in construction or infrastructure repair. And at least in the US, the percentage of women working in construction is growing, so maybe someday it'll be an even split and your entire argument will be moot.
You won't catch me saying that social media has been a net benefit for society. All the more reason to step away from it.
Declining population growth is normal in any developed/developing country. These are society-wide trends that can be seen in countries all around the world. You're going to have to give some kind of evidence that it's because men "don't want to deal with crazy," instead of just following the population pyramid like so many other countries in a similar economic situations.
I don't know much about the story other than what you posted and this article says. It's tragic that someone unrelated became the center of attention and was targeted by online vigilantism, but you still shouldn't want to normalize what you're calling "locker room talk".
I'm pretty sure this article was written before all the information about the case was sorted out. But even if you remove that last part, the "locker room talk" should in no way be acceptable.
Looking at these three (1) (2) (3) descriptions of fascism, only one of them (2) brings up enemies that are both weak and strong at the same time. But looking at that list, you're showcasing way more of the features of fascism if we're being honest. You clearly don't like how modern society is organized and seem to want to go back to how things used to be (1 and 2), you're very obviously showing social frustration (6), I could argue that you're obsessed with a plot (7) about how all feminists hate men, you're claiming women are physically weak and yet have social/cultural power over you (8), and there're some hints of (12) machismo, specifically the disdain for women.
Masculinity is a social construct. What you think of as "masculine" is shaped by society and the people around you. It's as strong or as weak as you believe it is, and different people can have different beliefs about the same thing. You can find plenty of academic studies or articles talking about this, and they all describe it in a similar way:
Now on to the examples you gave.
Why are you assuming anyone in that video is a feminist?
This was right after the Me Too movement, a response to the very real crimes perpetrated against women in the workplace. If I remember right, it was all started in response to Harvey Weinstein being accused by over 80 women of various crimes. Similarly, Bill Cosby had over 60 women come forward with stories about him. Just these two guys have over 100 victims and got away with it for decades. The department of labor still estimates that somewhere between 25% to 85% of women have experienced sexual assault in the workplace. False accusations happen, but unreported crimes are way more common.
That video literally opens with a woman saying other women need to be proactive when trying to get a date.
Why are you assuming the singular woman talked about in the video is a body-positive feminist? We know literally nothing about her except she sent a message to this random youtuber that was complaining about wearing a condom during sex. The guy got insulted on social media and made a 12 minute video response about how he wasn't hurt by it.
What part of this says it's because of feminism? I skipped to the "What's causing the rise in sexless men?" section (because I'm not about to listen to the entire 90 minute podcast) and the expert said it was because of reduced alcohol consumption, being generally more risk averse, and just not wanting to date.
Again, the "locker room" talk that you're so desperate to defend is fantasizing about rape. You can have private conversations among men, that's fine and no one is trying to stop that, but you keep specifically bringing up "locker room" talk. Where you objectify women and only consider their physical attractiveness. You even say that women do it and are worse off for it, why do you want "locker room" talk to be respected so much?
And why are so many of the videos you posted from Aba N Preach? Looking at their channel, it seems they post a new video about once every 2 days, and the vast majority of it is just reacting to social media posts and other videos. They seem like a rage-bait content mill. And since you posted over 4 1/2 hours of videos, I feel pretty okay about linking this video explaining the "manosphere", because Aba N Preach seem like they'd fit right in.
I don't want to debate the finer points of what makes a fascist. Maybe just take a minute and do some self-reflection as to why so many people see the things you write and instantly think "this belongs in the red-pill, right wing section of the internet."
Nowhere does she say she's a feminist. She's telling a story about being a model in California. Feminism isn't just being a woman. Google "feminist pretty privilege" and the top reddit post you find is way more compelling for what a feminist would say about "pretty privilege" than a random tiktoker your favorite youtubers managed to find.
You very literally were asking about what people are saying. You asked "why don't women get told to talk to guys?" and the answer is "they do."
At no point in the video does anyone even claim the woman was a body-positive feminist. Your favorite youtubers start talking about body-positivity as if she was, but she never claimed to be one and we never get to see any kind of evidence that she actually is.
Again, I watched the part labeled "What is causing the rise in sexless men?" and the expert didn't say anything at all about feminism. The podcast host brings it up briefly as a possibility, but then they move on to another topic. They aren't talking about feminism. You're bringing it up like it's the most natural thing in the world, but to do that you need to make a lot of assumptions that aren't supported by these things you're linking. I'd tell you to watch some of these videos again, but I'm sure you'd just inject your own narrative into them again.
You're the one that keeps bringing it up. "Locker room talk" has become a euphemism for sexualizing and objectifying women. I asked if you meant private conversations between boys, but the one real world example you brought up of locker room talk was a group chat where a bunch of teens were sharing photos of their classmates. If you want to be talking about private, girl-free conversations, tell me. Otherwise I'll keep assuming you think the kinds of things described in the "locker room bois" story should be normal and acceptable.
I've never heard of a girls' only chat where they shared fake nude photos of guys in there class, and yet here's a story from last week of your "boys locker room chat" that ends with a someone killing themself.
You'd think this right here would be enough of a reason to understand why the feminism movement exists, but oh well.
You'd think there'd be a much larger audience for the truly taboo subjects, like cannibalism and cutting your arm off with a rusty pocket knife. The kind of things everyone knows you obviously shouldn't be doing. They definitely exist, but they're a very small group considering how "exciting and demanded" it should be based on your logic.
Where are you getting this consensus from? One of the videos you sent me was literally all about how one of the guys said something controversial on twitter, and all they do is react to other people's content. Even if you use the more relevant definition of reactionary, they seem like they'd be pretty opposed to feminism making any real ground and actually changing the way they life their lives.
I'm pretty sure JustPearlyThings got demonetized for her pro-hitler song, not even Fresh&Fit know for sure why they got demonitized but I get the feeling it wasn't because of Aba N Preach. I just don't think the 0.5-2 million views they get per video is enough clout to get a video demonetized.
What does it even meant to cancel them? I'm absolutely labeling them, but do you think I have the power to make them stop producing new content? Or is canceling something just the same as not liking something?
Again, do you want it to be normal that some people get objectified? Do you think it's good that sometimes you go on a rant about some perceived negative quality other people have? You could try actually talking to the people you're gossiping about, give them some kind of feedback if their behavior is anti-social. But instead, you're here defending group chats where people share (fake) nude photos of their (underage) classmates.
You also haven't shown any real evidence that feminism is behind any of the problems you see in the world. Don't you believe in the pareto principle? Do you think it might be possible that all the negative, vitriolic things you see (that you assign to all of women and feminism) comes from a small minority of people? And that, just maybe, those people don't even have to be part of the feminist movement at all?
And I really don't care about your favorite youtubers, I just think you shouldn't listen so much to just one source. Especially when all they do is react to the latest social media outrage. But specifically for Fresh and Fit: that video you linked came out at the beginning of June, and the demonetization happened in mid August.