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Ah shit you got me i got the words swapped. I meant the summit being the last attempt of a treaty that Arafat didnt even bother trying to negotiate. What i was trying to say was there was an attempt for land swaps and a passage way for peace but the PLO captain shat his pants and decided he wants murder on his hands. Oslo II might have been the last official treaty but there have been attempts to get peace and a 2 state solution since then.
The only reason Egypt even has the Sinai back is because Israel offered it back as a sign of peace after it was captured. Palestinians have nothing to offer. Not even the Egyptians want them back in the Sinai now.
@febra@lemmy.world has addressed this point very nicely in a post which unfortunately is no longer readable. So allow me to quote it because it shows very well how insulting, I'd say on purpose, the whole proposal of Israel was. They just wanted something so outlandish that it was refused outright so they can later say "See we tried but they don't want to talk!!!!!!". The whole tactic is very similar to Austria-Hungary's ultimatum to Serbia which they specifically worded so Serbia had to refuse it or stop being a sovereign state.
Anyway here's the post of @febra@lemmy.world. It's a bit long but definitely worth the read to get a better understanding of this very complex situation:
Thank you for this comprehensive explanation of the situation.
You're welcome. It was quite eye opening to me when I read it first, so it was worth saving.
I absolutely don't think any of these propositions are outlandish or even remotely insulting. This was a hindsight problem. Given that we are now 20 years into the future, Palestinians would be stupid to not agree to these if it were proposed again. But that won't happen because of a multitude of reasons.
Again, all I was trying to say was that Oslo II was not the last time there was an attempt at a 2 state solution. Saying "take back to green line" is kind of dumb to me because that's no longer in scope of a solution.
"Oh man israel committed so many war crimes since they last gave the Palestinians a bad deal, that the previous deal looks amazing to the war crimes Palestinians are suffering from right now.
But instead of offering the Palestinians the previous deal israel will offer one that is far worse than the situation Palestinians are in right now".
You described the history of israel good job.
Yeah why not, that's how the world works. It's not like Palestinians are making their case any better. There was relative peace and stability in he area for 20ish years until Hamas decided to shit their pants. Why would Israel want to give them any benefit of the doubt when they are proving themselves to not be trustworthy?
When you look at it from the perspective of the Palestinians who want their own country with the sovereignty this entails, it absolutely is insulting. With those limitations they would be little more than a puppet state of Israel. Not only another state but one they have serious grievances and a bloody history with. There's no way they could accept this. Israel knew this very well!
I was ready to make a post on how the blockade didnt exist until Hamas took over and why but I would be interested to hear it from a Palestinian perspective.
I saw last night that Biden might be considering labelling them as sovereign. I feel like this would be a giant double edged sword for them. If Palestine becomes it's own nation and Israel was forced to open the blockade that would be great for Palestinians. If Hamas still decided to attack Israel at this point then the IDF would have justification to attack even harder.
That is an extremely problematic view. It reminds me of the Évian Conference where Hitler was arguing that "no one wants the jews" since the US, UK, and other countries refused to take in german jewish refugees, and thus "the final solution" was spawned. It's an extremely dehumanising view that ended up in genocide. Please refrain from repeating such opinions.
Besides that, the Palestinians have a long history in Palestine. I don't understand what you're hinting at with "wanting them back". Back where? They already have a home.
You misconstrued what I said. I meant they don't have anything to offer either Israel nor Egypt. Even if they wanted to negotiate again, they don't have anything going for them. Don't twist my words to fit some other topic.
Tbh, if you don't want people to misunderstand the things you say, then you need to start saying things with your chest. Stop posting inscrutable and reactionary blandities and start posting clear and intelligible opinions supported by as many facts as you're able to muster. Lemmy will be a better place if you do :)
Wow so I don't play along and you hit me with the "reactionary blandities". You can confront what I said rather than spout off. I'm sure you have some great points to cover. I don't particularly like being made a scarecrow but please educate me.
The point that I'm trying to make is that your comments are so nonspecific that it is impossible to "educate you" for the same reasons that it is impossible to nail a cloud to a wall. For example, in your first comment, you say that it is "Interesting how you used Oslo II and not the failed camp David summit options that Israel tried" but you don't explain why you think it's interesting or why they failed or why you think they should have succeeded but didn't or any other jumping off point to give others a chance to agree with you or rebut you. You just said something bland and vague and impossible to pin down. How could anyone possibly agree or disagree or even have a discussion about a statement as generic as "I find this interesting!"?
Ummm all I tried to say was that it's unfair to use a temporary solution (Oslo II) as the metric. I find it interesting that you can't understand that. Do you want me to elaborate on why I find that interesting or do you want to address why the green line is still in contention? You seem to be an expert at deflecting.
So say that with your chest! Say what you believe clearly and concisely exactly like you just did, explain why you believe what you do, and do it in a top-level comment without someone having to prompt you twice to do it. If you want bonus points, provide relevant citations for your claims.
That's how you make your posts corporeal rather than cloudlike. You have to put yourself out there and make your position known, and if you're going to do that then you might as well take the time to come correct
You are pretty patronizing lol you came into this conversation not saying anything with expectations. I am not trying to debate lord like the rest of you guys. I generally write here the same way i talk. I am not trying to win debates. If you have any more suggestions, my suggestion box is right here 🗑
I honestly dont care what you guys think of me. That might be the difference between us. Not going to tiptoe every engagement because im afraid I might not have enough value to add.
ok
You went this whole way just to tell me my position isnt strong enough as if this were my dissertation. While you are here you can atleast bring an opinion forth. Or do you need to look into the research on that first?
The do explain why you said “they don’t want them back”. When have the majority of Palestinians come from the Egyptian part of the Sinai peninsula? Since you’re obviously taking about this “back” it implies they must come from there, right? And please do explain what that message is hinting at or implying. Why would it even matter if someone “wanted them back”?
Let me put it this way for you: Do Europeans want the Ashkenazi Jews back? Does that even matter? Can you see how out of place this sounds now?
Why are you guys harping on one sentence.... All I meant was that Palestine has 0 friends here. They have no leverage yet they want fucking Oslo II to come back like if the last 20 years was a bad dream.
Because you’re clearly showing your true colours. There’s no point in having a genuine conversation with someone that talks in such a dehumanising manner.
My true colors is that Palestinians fucked up? Where am I being dehumanizing? I am just pointing out that Oslo II is not now nor not ever going to be a solution unless Gaza start shitting gold. Green line is a distant memory.