this post was submitted on 03 Feb 2024
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Akshually, Ukrainians want to join the EU, not NATO. If you don't believe me, look up the survey prior to 2014/2015 on how many want to join NATO and EU. You will find that majority of Ukrainians do not want to join the alliance but it's completely opposite for the latter. The yearning by Ukrainians to join NATO changed overnight after the Russian annexation of Crimea. Gee, I wonder why?
NATO=/= EU. They are two completely different things! That's like Ireland being attacked by Russia for being in the EU even though majority of Irish abhor NATO! Equating the two organisations is part of Russian propaganda. Because for the Russians, a sovereign country not aligning to them economically is the same as opposing them militarily.
It's a blindspot among Westerners to refuse seeing the Russian mindset. They have their own worldview that is alien to the West and vice versa. The Russians have Eurasianist worldview where the center of the world and power is Asia; and their country carving a huge piece of that pie. Even oppositions of ruling government-- from communist to Putin era-- are hard-core nationalists as well from Alexander Solzhenytsin to Alexey Navalny. They are poster boy of Russian opposition from their respective time and yet believe Russia should also go its own way. They might be more liberal minded Russians, but they are nationalist first and foremost, and Eurasianists at that.
So, with that in mind, for the Russians, Ukraine and Georgia joining the EU-- a socio-economic bloc-- is unacceptable and tantamount to joining NATO; even though the fucking majority of Ukrainians and Georgians do not want to join NATO until further Russian provocations, brought by Russian siege mentality, pushed those countries to crave to join NATO. If Putin does not want NATO expansion, he certainly pushed two more countries to join, namely Finland and Sweden. Even Alexey Navalny-- Putin's main presidential opponent-- said of the current president as the worst in geopolitics for having just provoked more countries to join NATO if the intention is to prevent its expansion. Those who says otherwise and keep harping about West provoking Ukraine to join NATO is Russian propaganda, because from the latter's pov, either Ukraine signs a deal with them economically, or it means opposing them existentially too. Because Russia wants to carve their own sphere of influence.
What the people say in polls is not important. The US has been threatening to let Ukraine into NATO for years, the leadership in Ukraine wanted to be in NATO (cuz leaders in countries often don't follow what the people want) and Russia used the threat of an application to NATO along with other reasons to constitute invasion. Which, btw, Ukraine applied for NATO status in September of 2022, so your feelings are invalid.
I'm well aware of how the Russian oligarch mindset is. But this is a war that both Russia and the US have wanted and instigated for a very very very long time. It's also within the US's best interest to keep this war going on as long as possible and turn it into the next Afghanistan if it yields enough profit. Not everything that paints the US as bad guys is Russian propaganda. Remember, US bad AND Russia bad.
Do you have a source?
Why does public opinion not matter when the whole ordeal started when the Yanukovych reneged on the deal with the EU causing a revolution to overthrow him in 2014?
Convenient line you have tried to take haven't you?
Why would Ukraine not apply after being invaded since 2015 after Crimean annexation? If you are not wilfully ignoring what I said said, Ukraine did not want to join NATO until Russia invaded Crimea with insignia-less "green men".
And cut the crap with faux centrist bs about BoTh SiDeS BaD with respect to Ukraine. In spite of saying both sides are bad, it is very telling that much of your criticism seems to be more against Ukraine and West and almost zero criticism of what Russia did wrong. This is nothing but serving Russian propaganda.
No one could ever produce substantial evidence of Americans or the West goading Ukraine to join them when asked for proof. Recently declassified conversation from the Blair era were well aware that Ukraine joining the EU might "provoke" the Russians and questioned whether or not Ukrainians are "European" enough to join the EU. The West also were friendly with Putin before, to which the Ukrainian government at the time thought the West had "too rosy view" of Putin. It is very telling after all that countries not in NATO somehow have separatist movements aligned with Russia, namely in Georgia, Transnistria and Ukraine. Meanwhile, NATO-member Baltic states with significant Russian population somehow aren't clamouring for Russian influence. Not very telling at all!
The blame is squarely on Kremlin with their own siege mentality and jingoism. If you actually know how Russian mindset works as you claim, you'd acknowledge that. There is no reason for Russia not to be friendly with the West while still pursuing their own geopolitical interests. France always go their own way despite being a NATO member. India plays both the West and Russia and China. Russia could do the same but instead, they're stuck in the 19th century, dog eat dog, brute imperialist mindset and wants their way or no way at all.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
You should probably look this over. I think it'll help clarify a lot.
India always has military exercises with NATO too. Does that mean they will join NATO? Conversely, India also conducts military exercises with China and Russia. Does that mean India and China and Russia are military allies?
Ireland also has relations with NATO, does that mean Ireland will join too? Should Russia invade Ireland if that happens?
Military exercises and talks do not always mean formal alliance. Sure, governments on many occasions do not follow the will of the people. But there are lines that they won't cross if enough people do protests. It is political suicide in Ireland for any politicians to demand joining NATO. And as was the same case in Ukraine before until the Russian invasion.
That all being said, why is it Russia's business whom Ukraine chooses to have close military relationship with? Since India have closer military relationship with Russia, with India being the biggest buyer of Russian arms and regular partner in joint exercises, would you say that the United States have the right to antagonise India because of this, in the same way that Ukraine has close military relationship with NATO?
The problem is that people think in the socially constructed current paradigm of nation state model and great power game. Why is it any business of the bigger neighbours what the small country choose to be friendly with? But I suppose no one really cares about small countries having innate sovereign right to exercise their agency. The concerns of a bigger power like Russia's is always more important, am I right?
As a matter of fact, Russia, India, and China are allies. It's called The BRICS. Ireland is many miles away and didn't used to be part of Russia, Ukraine is that. The US has a long history with antagonizing India, it's a little country called Pakistan.
Your problem is that when presented with facts you refuse to accept them. Maybe take a moment to realize that the world as you know it isn't quite how it seems. You can't say Ukraine was never interested in joining NATO and then disregard and deflect the moment you're proven wrong.
Except it's not an alliance nor a formal organisation with the same political relevance, legal weight and structure as NATO, Mercosur or the EU? China isn't even providing military hardware to Russia and to support them in Ukraine.
You're talking about facts but could not even get the simple facts lol. Come back when you stop projecting.
So you think Ukraine should not have split from Russia? Are you ignoring the past amicable split of Ukraine from Russia after the fall of Soviet Union, during which both parties signed to recognise each others sovereignty? Because you're telling me and any readers that Ukraine should not be have exercised their own agency in foreign policy. Are you blaming them for wanting to be closer to the West? You are victim blaming and denying the agency of others, aren't you?
When asked what the US thinks of joint Russian and Indian military exercises, the Pentagon said India could do military drills with whomever they want. That's the fact, you're not supposed to deny other countries to pursue their own agency and policies. This is what Russia and their trolls and vatniks are doing instead.
Well, is India fighting the US because of it? Are they having diplomatic row or war? Why does the US navy still conduct military exercise with the Indian navy then when the latter doesn't do so with Russia and China?
BRICS is not a trade agreement, lol. It's like the G groupings such as G20 and G7, who just convene and talk but have little to no substantive legal weight. Some members may have trade agreements with each other, but not everyone trade each other with the same rules under BRICS, unlike Mercosur or the EU that are objectively economic bloc with legally binding rules. Because BRICS is neither a treaty organisation that have shared sovereignty, like the EU, nor a military alliance like the NATO. Brazil is even indifferent to Russian invasion of Ukraine, while China is not providing arms to Russia but provides limited finance. How does BRICS sound like an alliance to you? Show me the charter stating they're a formal alliance or an economic bloc.
You know what they say: it's more like what is not said than what is said. It's very telling though that your vocal criticism is more directed to Ukraine and US, but there is no explicit and equal criticism of Russia. I've seen this play out with by pseudo-centrist nonsense serving Russian propaganda (or to any other authoritarian countries). Criticise US for using Ukraine, but faux centrists never or say little anything about Russia fomenting Russian-separatism. It's very suspicious that, somehow, countries that are non-NATO and have substantial Russian-speakers have separatist sentiment. Meanwhile, NATO-members with many Russian-speakers aren't getting separatist sentiment. Coincidence? You tell me.
And this presents the problem that encouraging to do so, you're enabling the UN charter to uphold national sovereignty and respecting another country's border to be completely thrown away. This is the problem with ill-informed centrist view on the war in Ukraine, if it's not a vatnik or troll take. Just ignore the legalities. Assuming you're an American, if in a hypothetical scenario Texas was invaded by Mexico as they used to own it, and that part was having trouble to be retaken by your army, would you say to just throw in the towel? Ignore the national sovereignty? US and Mexico signed treaty to cede Texas to US. Ukraine and Russia signed treaty to respect each other's independence. You will allow all the legal proceedings to be completely quashed? Enabling to set precedence to illegal invasions?
You know what, you're right. Ukraine should just expend all their resources until they're so weak they can't hold back the Russian military at all and the entire country should be conquered. Or they can win and become a US puppet state. Both solutions are better than losing a small amount of land that they've been shelling since 2012 and where most of the population is unhappy with how they're living. Also, fuck Crimea, they shouldn't have fresh water either. Give that land back to Ukraine so they can dam the only water supply to the region. As long as the US state department makes all the money, I don't give a fuck what happens. I hope they all fight til they're dead or in chains. Slava Ukraini!
If you what you claimed before that you know the Russian mindset, then you should already have known Russia will just use the lull period to attack again. There were those who are naive or missing the big picture by advocating to make peace and concessions with Hitler before. Just saying.
More will lose than just land by making peace with Putin. Nice spin though with pushing the narrative of military industry complex and Pentagon benefiting (duh), except supporting Ukraine is a just war. But as I suspected, you still are not calling out Russian elite benefiting from the war but only demonise the US. If what I heard is true, Russian elites raked in millions from the conflict. I don't hear you specifically call out Russia if you truly are "enlightened centrist"
First off, no matter how much you hate Putin, he's not Hitler. The Russian mindset is very simple, it's basically just apply the US mindset to them but less efficient. It's the standard capitalist imperialist mindset. And I'm not saying anything bad about Russia because it's not necessary for this conversation. You already know why Russia's bad so it would be redundant. I'm not a centrist at all either. I'm a leftist. Real far leftist. Like, the farthest left you get.
First off, no matter how much you hate Putin, he's not Hitler.
No, but they both lied about not having plans to invade another country, and then did so after some days.
And yet you kept harping about Ukraine being goaded to join NATO without palpable evidence. Russia is the one who keeps provoking Ukraine, prompting the latter to demand accession to NATO after the annexation of Crimea.
With all that being said, you're the person this meme pokes fun at.
Oh, so you never read that link I sent. Here, I'll send it again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations It's literally been going on since the collapse of the Soviet Union. As for Russia invading multiple countries, that hasn't happened. The last country they invaded before Ukraine was Georgia in 2008. So no, they haven't done a Hitler. This is the problem with getting all your history lessons from memes.
Again, military exercise does not mean alliance. Get your reading comprehension improved.
And again, Putin said he won't invade but did anyway. But go on, be the vatnik that this meme ridicules.
What military exercise are you on about? Please stop larping as a Ukrainian freedom fighter, you dork