this post was submitted on 03 Feb 2024
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
You should probably look this over. I think it'll help clarify a lot.
India always has military exercises with NATO too. Does that mean they will join NATO? Conversely, India also conducts military exercises with China and Russia. Does that mean India and China and Russia are military allies?
Ireland also has relations with NATO, does that mean Ireland will join too? Should Russia invade Ireland if that happens?
Military exercises and talks do not always mean formal alliance. Sure, governments on many occasions do not follow the will of the people. But there are lines that they won't cross if enough people do protests. It is political suicide in Ireland for any politicians to demand joining NATO. And as was the same case in Ukraine before until the Russian invasion.
That all being said, why is it Russia's business whom Ukraine chooses to have close military relationship with? Since India have closer military relationship with Russia, with India being the biggest buyer of Russian arms and regular partner in joint exercises, would you say that the United States have the right to antagonise India because of this, in the same way that Ukraine has close military relationship with NATO?
The problem is that people think in the socially constructed current paradigm of nation state model and great power game. Why is it any business of the bigger neighbours what the small country choose to be friendly with? But I suppose no one really cares about small countries having innate sovereign right to exercise their agency. The concerns of a bigger power like Russia's is always more important, am I right?
As a matter of fact, Russia, India, and China are allies. It's called The BRICS. Ireland is many miles away and didn't used to be part of Russia, Ukraine is that. The US has a long history with antagonizing India, it's a little country called Pakistan.
Your problem is that when presented with facts you refuse to accept them. Maybe take a moment to realize that the world as you know it isn't quite how it seems. You can't say Ukraine was never interested in joining NATO and then disregard and deflect the moment you're proven wrong.
Except it's not an alliance nor a formal organisation with the same political relevance, legal weight and structure as NATO, Mercosur or the EU? China isn't even providing military hardware to Russia and to support them in Ukraine.
You're talking about facts but could not even get the simple facts lol. Come back when you stop projecting.
So you think Ukraine should not have split from Russia? Are you ignoring the past amicable split of Ukraine from Russia after the fall of Soviet Union, during which both parties signed to recognise each others sovereignty? Because you're telling me and any readers that Ukraine should not be have exercised their own agency in foreign policy. Are you blaming them for wanting to be closer to the West? You are victim blaming and denying the agency of others, aren't you?
When asked what the US thinks of joint Russian and Indian military exercises, the Pentagon said India could do military drills with whomever they want. That's the fact, you're not supposed to deny other countries to pursue their own agency and policies. This is what Russia and their trolls and vatniks are doing instead.
Well, is India fighting the US because of it? Are they having diplomatic row or war? Why does the US navy still conduct military exercise with the Indian navy then when the latter doesn't do so with Russia and China?
BRICS is not a trade agreement, lol. It's like the G groupings such as G20 and G7, who just convene and talk but have little to no substantive legal weight. Some members may have trade agreements with each other, but not everyone trade each other with the same rules under BRICS, unlike Mercosur or the EU that are objectively economic bloc with legally binding rules. Because BRICS is neither a treaty organisation that have shared sovereignty, like the EU, nor a military alliance like the NATO. Brazil is even indifferent to Russian invasion of Ukraine, while China is not providing arms to Russia but provides limited finance. How does BRICS sound like an alliance to you? Show me the charter stating they're a formal alliance or an economic bloc.
You know what they say: it's more like what is not said than what is said. It's very telling though that your vocal criticism is more directed to Ukraine and US, but there is no explicit and equal criticism of Russia. I've seen this play out with by pseudo-centrist nonsense serving Russian propaganda (or to any other authoritarian countries). Criticise US for using Ukraine, but faux centrists never or say little anything about Russia fomenting Russian-separatism. It's very suspicious that, somehow, countries that are non-NATO and have substantial Russian-speakers have separatist sentiment. Meanwhile, NATO-members with many Russian-speakers aren't getting separatist sentiment. Coincidence? You tell me.
And this presents the problem that encouraging to do so, you're enabling the UN charter to uphold national sovereignty and respecting another country's border to be completely thrown away. This is the problem with ill-informed centrist view on the war in Ukraine, if it's not a vatnik or troll take. Just ignore the legalities. Assuming you're an American, if in a hypothetical scenario Texas was invaded by Mexico as they used to own it, and that part was having trouble to be retaken by your army, would you say to just throw in the towel? Ignore the national sovereignty? US and Mexico signed treaty to cede Texas to US. Ukraine and Russia signed treaty to respect each other's independence. You will allow all the legal proceedings to be completely quashed? Enabling to set precedence to illegal invasions?
You know what, you're right. Ukraine should just expend all their resources until they're so weak they can't hold back the Russian military at all and the entire country should be conquered. Or they can win and become a US puppet state. Both solutions are better than losing a small amount of land that they've been shelling since 2012 and where most of the population is unhappy with how they're living. Also, fuck Crimea, they shouldn't have fresh water either. Give that land back to Ukraine so they can dam the only water supply to the region. As long as the US state department makes all the money, I don't give a fuck what happens. I hope they all fight til they're dead or in chains. Slava Ukraini!
If you what you claimed before that you know the Russian mindset, then you should already have known Russia will just use the lull period to attack again. There were those who are naive or missing the big picture by advocating to make peace and concessions with Hitler before. Just saying.
More will lose than just land by making peace with Putin. Nice spin though with pushing the narrative of military industry complex and Pentagon benefiting (duh), except supporting Ukraine is a just war. But as I suspected, you still are not calling out Russian elite benefiting from the war but only demonise the US. If what I heard is true, Russian elites raked in millions from the conflict. I don't hear you specifically call out Russia if you truly are "enlightened centrist"
First off, no matter how much you hate Putin, he's not Hitler. The Russian mindset is very simple, it's basically just apply the US mindset to them but less efficient. It's the standard capitalist imperialist mindset. And I'm not saying anything bad about Russia because it's not necessary for this conversation. You already know why Russia's bad so it would be redundant. I'm not a centrist at all either. I'm a leftist. Real far leftist. Like, the farthest left you get.
First off, no matter how much you hate Putin, he's not Hitler.
No, but they both lied about not having plans to invade another country, and then did so after some days.
And yet you kept harping about Ukraine being goaded to join NATO without palpable evidence. Russia is the one who keeps provoking Ukraine, prompting the latter to demand accession to NATO after the annexation of Crimea.
With all that being said, you're the person this meme pokes fun at.
Oh, so you never read that link I sent. Here, I'll send it again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations It's literally been going on since the collapse of the Soviet Union. As for Russia invading multiple countries, that hasn't happened. The last country they invaded before Ukraine was Georgia in 2008. So no, they haven't done a Hitler. This is the problem with getting all your history lessons from memes.
Again, military exercise does not mean alliance. Get your reading comprehension improved.
And again, Putin said he won't invade but did anyway. But go on, be the vatnik that this meme ridicules.
What military exercise are you on about? Please stop larping as a Ukrainian freedom fighter, you dork