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‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2024
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Are you saying every person on the side being eradicated is a saint? Are you saying all "both sides" statements are inaccurate simply because one side has shown itself to be by far more monstrous?
Does their innocent dead now become unworthy of considering? People have died on both sides. There are innocent people on both sides. There are monstrous people on both sides.
Ignoring any of that because Gaza is being absolutely stomped by Israels more powerful position does a disservice to anyone trying figure out what is actually happening, and what a way to make it stop might look like.
Shit people in charge doesn't excuse killing kids, but killing kids doesn't make the shit people cease to exist, either.
The whole thing needs to stop. But let's not kid ourselves with the idea that that ball in the long is entirely in Israel's court. It simply isn't that simple.
Is it step one? Yes. Does it have to be step one, because right now nothing Hamas can do or say will make it stop? Yes.
But is it the last step? Fuck no.
Again, removed for civility. You make a salient point right up until you attack the other user.
I literally agree with every word you just wrote, "you fucking idiot".
There's also a bunch of shit that has to happen for a lasting piece after that, and you are helping no-one by ignoring that and flying off the handle at people who otherwise already side with you.
If you agree, then you don't need to do this ridiculous moral equivocation bullshit. Worry about the morality of whoever remains when the people murdering civilians en masse have stopped. Going out of your way to point out how the unquestionable victims are "no angels" is what isn't helping.
I'll leave out the insult to your intelligence this time, since I guess I'm testing the mods patience.
And seriusly. Is your problem with me actually just that I dared to think about and comment on what there is to occur past Isreal stopping their fucking genocide?
And you think my doing that makes me stupid one?
My problem with you is this shit right here:
This is the moral equivocation that is pissing me off. Shut the fuck up about it! It doesn't matter!
I literally only said that to piss you off.
It wasn't even the focus of the comment that set you off, yet you got so hung up on it you instantly painted me the blackest black you could find, completely blinding yourself to what my take of the situation actually is.
There are people in Gaza who would do to Israel what is being done to them. And they were allowed to make all this worse.
Those types of people need to go, from all leadership positions. On both sides. No. That does not mean they need to be killed, or that any part of what is being done is deserved.
When peace is an option, you can't have someone in charge that will say no. Not in Israel. Not in Palestine.
Buddy you said it in so many words in the first comment of this chain:
They could be the most wretched beings on the face of this fucking earth and I would still support them against Israel. I don't care how they feel or what they did. If you're mad about the moral degeneracy of the leadership in Gaza then you have Israel to thank for that. They propped up Hamas deliberately over the more secular, sympathetic resistance groups in the strip specifically so people could make this disgusting argument. You are helping them, playing right into their fucking hands.
I'm so sorry I didn't specifically mention them in my lament of this exact fact.
If you lament this fact then stop bringing up how deplorable they are! They didn't pick them because they're actually morally abhorrent monsters, they picked them because they were counting on westerners racism towards islamic resistance groups. I guess they picked a winner!
And might I point out that you could have been much more effective by just adding this context you felt I left out, instead of insulting my assumed ignorance and having the entirety of what you wanted said removed.
Buddy, I'm not gonna self-censor any part of discussing this.
I'm perfectly convinced of the imperative to stop Israel even without that.
Great. I'm glad you're comfortable with doing the job of the people you claim to despise. This is why I insulted you. Repeatedly. Thanks for confirming it was justified.
And I'm sorry that you feel the need to police others on how they talk about it, for fear it not be effective enough as propaganda.
And I'm not using that word in a negative sense. The truth should already make it clear to anyone, what needs to happen.
Your need to be choosy about which parts we mention is just sad, IMO.
ok
And again, you could have just added to what I said, instead berating me for bringing it up in the first place. Trying to shut someone up isn't how you convince anyone. That specific person, or anyone else reading the discussion.
I really don't know where you got the idea that I think there is anything excusable about what the Israeli government is doing.
My initial comment is merely an expression that it is no longer surprising. That they are no longer in any way hiding that the goal is absolute atrocity.
My second comment concurs with the unfortunate reality that the leaderships involved have all contributed to things getting worse, and innocents ending up dead, or suffering and then dead. AT NO POINT DID I SUGGEST ANYONE IN GAZA DESERVES WHAT IS HAPPENING.
Even if all the people who wanted to do evil in Gaza, are now dead, at no point did I suggest what has transpired was a remotely acceptable way to achieve that. Or even that killing them was on the table in the first place. That interpretation is entirely yours.
Yet, the reality is that even if no-one in Hamas wanted every Israelite dead before, some of them do now. Do they have good reason for such desires? Oh yeah. And that is gonna be an obstacle along any path you might take to make this stop. It doesn't matter which ones survive. The nature of what has been done to them means there will be someone out for blood. AND NO, THAT IS NOT A REASON TO KEEP KILLING THEM!
No it isn't and I wish you would stop insisting that it is or would be. Neither the people of Gaza nor their leaders have the ability to stop this shit; what they feel about Israelis matters not at all. The motherfuckers standing by, watching, supporting this shit are the one's whose morality you should be calling into question. They are the obstacles standing in the way of justice and peace, ignoring their moral obligation to stop a fucking genocide.
I'm not saying they do. In fact I literally pointed that exact fact out.
You are absolutely, 100%, correct. Preaching to the choir. Israel needs to stop, immediately. Anyone who can force their hand should have done so, day one.
But what comes after cannot be what was done to Germany after WWI, because that shit is what led to WWII. Now before you get your panties further into a twist, no, Hama's current position is not equivalent to that of Germany in WWI.
But ANY peace that comes after this, won't last, if the people of Gaza have any desire for revenge left 50 years from now. The same goes for Israel, they should more likely develop the kind of national shame that Germany has for WWII, but they too will need some kind of cultural stopping element for their bloodlust.
Whatever comes after this is one of two scenarios: the destruction of Gaza, or the dissolution of Israel. There is no outcome where things go back to how they were before Oct 7. That door is closed and the status quo of those times was no less unjust the the current situation. These two states cannot coexist, worrying about how Israel and Gaza will get along when the bombs stop dropping is pointless because things have escalated to the point where one or both cannot and will not survive this. Hemming and hawing about how much Gaza will hate Israel is pointless navel gazing.
Fully agree.
But the people in that land WILL have to co-exist, no matter what shape their nations take. To minimize death, that is not optional.
You can't just defang a government and expect that to be the end of it.
You don't understand. There will be no government left. Either the international community steps in because it finally realizes its moral obligation to stop a genocide, in which case Israel's government is gone; either tried in the Hague or dead, and the whole region is collapsed into newly-formed single state staffed by UN stooges. Or things continue as they are and we watch a million people get starve under the boot of fascist colonial expansionism, their leadership having fled or been killed. Then we get to watch it all over again when Israel decides it wants the West Bank, too.
...
How exactly does any of that semantic nitpicking change the fact that as long as the people remain, the cultural clash that led to all this, will too?
Unless you are suggesting that to stop a genocide, we need another one?
You've spent this entire discussion lamenting about how depraved the leadership of these groups are, how they're the ones driving the conflict. Now you're going to swap to saying that it's cultural? Make up your mind.
Now you're grasping straws.
Unless you are suggesting that cultural consciousness and what kind of people get into leadership positions are entirely unrelated, which they aren't, you've got nothing.