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We also have state-sanctioned kidnapping, wherein the convicted are taken from their families and held against their will, sometimes for years at a time.
There are many good arguments against the death penalty. I don't think those that just rephrase what is done in an emotional way are good ones.
And the whole property seizure without due process thing (civil forfeiture) although each of these is somewhat less important than the last.
no, you're right, especially as nearly every single independent study agrees with your first paragraph.
Prison generates profit first, solves crime... well not second, maybe ninth? Sixteenth? A hundred and twenty eighth?
I mean, you could argue that even if the criminal justice system in the US were massively improved, there would still be no reason to have the death penalty. And yet there could still be good reason to keep imprisonment as a consequence for many types of crimes.
I'm curious what your alternative is.
I don't think you want to tie getting rid of the death penalty to current inequities and private prison corruption unless in your ideal system it should make a return.
it's not about "me" or "my" alternatives as I am not an expert. however, look at Sweden, Finland, Denmark, the Netherlands and New Zealand.
The kidnapping analogy also applies to the Nordic countries, the Netherlands, and New Zealand. They all have governments which detain people against their will.
you have absolutely lost my interest in this conversation if you're going to flat out state that the Nordic system is identical to the US
But they didn't say that though?
They pointed out those countries also have jails/prisons that detain people against their will. That isn't the same as saying the systems are identical.
yeah but the differences are so obvious there's no point in me engaging in this conversation, it's just a snooze fest of saying obvious things and arguing over semantics.
If they're engaging in gotchas like "oh HO, YOU said that the US prison system doesn't work and yet you acknowledge that in better systems they imprison people a LOT less, but that still means they imprison SOME people."
it's like yeah, thanks, I know, not interested in having a conversation like that.
You have to read back through the thread. The whole point is that every country on earth justifies imprisonment for crimes. Calling it kidnapping doesn't make it wrong.
The same is true of the death penalty. Calling it murder doesn't make it wrong. It's a bad argument. This sub-thread was on that narrow topic.
the comment I was responding to was suggesting (paraphrased) "execution isn't murder like imprisonment isn't kidnapping, you're just using emotive language to score points"
and I said (paraphrased) "many studies have proven that imprisonment doesn't work and therefore is actually an emotional reaction"
they said "yes but they still imprison people"
and I said "yes but they have better systems"
and they said "YES BUT they STILL imprison people"
I said "ok but that's not a very interesting conversation"
you said, "but they're right"
and i said "ok but that's not a very interesting converstion"
and you said "but they're right"
so - is this an interesting conversation to you? it's not to me.
Ok, I understand your perspective now. No, it's just going in circles. Let's move on.