this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2023
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Well? You were so ready to prove me wrong and I'm still waiting. I've given you days to find the sources for your claims, but I guess it's hard to find sources for made up shit. Maybe you should follow your own advice and read before you write, otherwise you just end up self-owning yourself.
Nah, I actually wrote a thing out but lemmy 0.18.3 was buggy as hell and it didn't post, and it ruined my mood for this. Since you've shown yourself to be so lazy that you couldn't just google the statistics of English speakers in Russia (hint, wikipedia has some easily digestible data), it's pretty clear you're just wasting my time and moving the goalposts, misrepresenting your own sources and generally acting in bad faith, and the comment thread is so hidden that engaging with your bad faith won't even help to reach even actually curious lurkers. No point in it for me really, prove yourself right all you want in an endless thread talking to yourself. Maybe this talking to this lad instead, you both think alike.
As evidence of your nonsense:
What is the official name for that coup, Coup of Dignity?
Actually read those and point me where the actual de-escalation is in there. Literally dismiss Russia's claims offhandedly while claiming "changes in transparency" or other political non-statements.
Your honour, I didn't kill him, it was my brain who told the finger to pull the trigger.
Military defence alliance can't control its members, logically.
lmao, find me an official Russian source denying their support for the independence of the eastern republics.
Yes. Find me a single case in modern history where a peace talk only started (read: not a surrender) only after the winning party abandoned all their military gains. You can probably think of one or two, but that's a good exercise nevertheless.
Had to check, you don't even read what your own sources say.
Honestly, go waste somebody else's time with your
nonsense. If you really care that much that none of Russia's demands go answered, go join the foreign legion or something, I've head they even help with student loans. Just dont pester some rando correcting your "what guarantees" vagueposting.
Lol, you became a caricature of the same things you criticize others for and then some. Absolutely unhinged reply.
Care to elaborate?
You tell others to "read before you write" but then yourself don't do it. Like you said, it's quick google to see that "a lot" of Russians don't speak English. But instead of doing a quick google to see if you're full of shit you just write it out anyway. No regards to you own "read before you write" mantra. In fact every place where I specifically asked for proof is a place where you're either completely wrong or partially wrong.
Then there's the whole "we're here to have a discussion, why are you even here to discuss something if you don't care about it?" as if you're open to discussion. Except when I actually push back you turn around and go "No point in discussing, nobody else will see it" which is entirely contradictory to US having "discussion".
Then there's the deliberately vague part which is how the entire thread started. Your first comment literally "maybe this or maybe that and maybe something else would've happened". Could it be any more vague? I even pressed you on specifically mentioning what you mean by guarantees and your response was somehow even more vague, telling me to read Putins speech and figure them out on my own. You did something similar the second time when I asked proof of a lot of Russians speaking English and you told me to go find the data myself. Any and all attempts for any specificity out of you is met with vagueness or deflection. Which makes it pretty ironic for you to call people questioning your vagueness as vagueposting.
And then you pull out every "debate" lord trick in the book. You say I'm wasting your time, I'm moving goalposts, I'm in bad faith. You call me names, like "debate pervert". And then you pull a series of "evidence of nonsense" where you're just raging.
I honestly had a good laugh over your entire comment because it epitomizes your hypocrisy.
What is that number again, I can't seem to find the wikipedia article on it. \s
Really silly of you to come back and not even look into it. If you want something even more precise, I challenge you to find something called "English proficiency index," but the entire point there is that you wasted my time asking for source on some incredibly easy to find non-politicised source for data to deflect from your baseless speculation on how "Russians fall for everything" of their own propaganda. I wonder what you'll think of the countries lower on that index. If you even look for it, that is.
You seem to be mistaken. It's not that I didn't read it, it's that I didn't feel like adding it in the comment because it's such easy to find info. But since you seem to be incapable of doing a basic google search to verify, and I think I should be your personal source-fetching bot, I'm stubbornly not giving you the source because I "gave up" on you. On the other hand you also came out with your own claim of "lots don't speak English," with no source to contradict me, which is funny because you had a whole week to find one.
I can be petty sometimes, and if you keep pestering me I'll only be petty from now on because you're just a silly person with silly behaviour and I ain't got time in my life to take you seriously.
Everyone has limits, and you seem so stuck on completely failing to grasp even your own sources that I don't see why I should bother. I usually engage with silly people like you in forums because other, more curious and interested people might read it. Since you're just being (intentionally?) silly and misreading your own sources on NATO or not remembering the official NATO name for the coup is "Revolution of Dignity," I don't think there's much use to this one here and you're free to go pester somebody else.
I like how you accuse me of "vagueposting" by being vague in your accusations. My very first comments were being made about they hypothetical guarantees you took so much issue with. You still haven't shown how those guarantees would've not prevented the war or been sane de-escalations.
Since you always seem to forget: de-escalate war on Donnetsk and Luhansk, recognise their independence or at least do proper procedure on it, disband Azov and ban neo-nazi symbology, reinstate Russian as a co-official language, guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO and there'll be no nukes in Russia's critical neighbouring countries.
I bet each of those would've been welcome there, but alas, NATO only cared about "transparency," from your own sources, and did not consider a single of Russia's complaints as valid. Now please, go off again on "what guarantees????" as if I haven't said that like 4 times now.
Those complaints are in the literal declaration speech ffs, but no I did not tell you to figure out on my own. Go read the comment again, I specifically quoted the specific sections. Your memory seems a bit wonky even though I've been apparently living rent-free in your mind for a week now. I don't live rent-free in my own home, can we switch that? Go re-read the whole thread.
As I said, I actually did put the source there, but lemmy bugged out and didn't post, which led me to realise I didn't want to bother with you anymore because you're playing dumb. This last comment was specifically about how you're playing dumb so hard you couldn't even search for English speaker statistics per country, as if it's some huge gargantuan task. I bet you did that just to distract from the main point of Russians being able to critically analyse text, though you probably don't even remember that. Do you only know English, by any chance?
Ah yeah, the old debate trick of saying "fuck off, you're being an arse, go pester somebody else." I'm not "debating" with you anymore, nor was I ever to begin with. I just want you to find something more worthwhile to do with your life because I don't have an obligation to correct every single arrogantly ignorant person on the internet, just because they're feeling lonely. I do it of my own volition when I think I might change or learn something. As I said before, nobody else is watching, and you don't seem to have much interest in either learning or teaching, so this is indeed "a waste of my time." You might find more interest if you send a letter to your congressperson.
I guess the internet is weird, people can't differentiate fun mockery from actual anger. I was mocking how incredibly ignorant you were showing yourself off to be, by either stating complete unsourced nonsense, or asking for sources for things that are literally in the links you provided, or even failing to understand how military alliances work. Obviously since I have no hope for you I won't actually put the effort to explain why those are problems, I guess you'd just deflect to something else as always.
Yep. I stand by that.
That's cool, at least something good came out of this whole interaction. I also enjoyed how you came back after the obvious bait of "care to elaborate." Seems like you really like me. But I don't like you, go find somebody who reciprocates.
Now, if you reply (and you're obviously gonna reply, you just can't leave me be), before your own comment list in your own words every single demand from Russia wrt the war, and whether they've been conceded on or ignored. I wonder if you'll find something, but please don't come back without making it clear you understand those demands clearly.
Jesus... And you tell me how I misrepresent sources. But unlike you I actually take effort to explain why you're wrong. EF EPI evaluates the English proficiency based on who took the test. It is not even an estimation of how big part of the population actually speaks english (on any level). It just states that from the russian people who chose to take test they proficiency is at B2 level. Also, you still didn't even bother to link a source.
I also didn't add any sources because most of should be an easy find, funny how you give me shit about it but then turn around and do the exact same thing. Also what the fuck? I never claimed "lots don't speak English". You're literally making shit up about what I supposedly said.
Anyway since you now indirectly asked for it, and it seems it's not that easy of a search for you, I give you the source that Russians in general don't really speak English. I hope your Russian is good. Actually that wasn't a quick search, a quick search would've found you an English site that actually gave a far more generous estimation (about 10%), but I'm guessing you would've taken an issue with a random English side stating the obvious so I dug a bit deeper to find a more official source, specifically to prove how fucking wrong you are.
Maybe you should considering it's becoming more and more apparent how little you actually know about the shit you're talking about. You might actually learn something from me.
I wasn't going to specifically address one part of your ramblings, nothing there deserved to be addressed because it was all bullshit. So don't throw out some easy gotchas like YOU getting the name wrong.
I've been trying to tell you for a while now, the demand of those guarantees is baseless. What is the justification for those demands? Should the rest of the world just roll over for Russia because they have concerns? Please, enlighten me how are they justified?
You say that, but then you also claim you won't even give me the time of day. Another empty statement by you.
Well if being deliberately wrong is fun mockery then by all means, be a joke.
I do actually like you. You're part of my daily entertainment.
I'm just going to stick my hand in your playbook and say every single demand is easy to google so you should know that I know what they are. I don't need to give sources to things that are easy to google. Did I get it right?
Accidentally posted before writing fully, if you're wondering about the deleted comment.
like patience... lots and lots of patience...
What's the "correct" name again, big guy? Say it in ALL CAPS like you like to do, like we're in the 90s internet still.
Just two that are obvious, tolerating of Nazi symbology and members in Azov (your initial source on this did not go into detail on how exactly Azov doesn't allow Nazis in it anymore after being explicitly created by them 10 years ago), and de-escalating the war on Luhansk and Donnetsk and recognising their desire to be independent. I'm not sure how somebody could be against those things, let alone deny that they've been happening for 10 years now. The rest are more complicated, find a friend to talk to about those. But please, don't address the important bit and go talk about random unrelated things like language levels, which is a tangent on top of a tangent on top of a tangent.
About as much as Mexico. Not a bad number at all, and nowadays we have cool tools like google translate or yandex. I can't actually read Cyrillic script but using those tools you can see that they name something like "school languages" in which 20-30% of people study a foreign language at school but don't use it day-to-day. That's a very big number if you compare it to other non-EU developed countries. Hopefully you yourself know Russian and can help correct if I mistranslated it. That'd be the first time your knowledge would contribute to the conversation.
erm, no? Aren't we on an English site?
On the other hand your other source isn't particularly "official," it's just a blog in Russian. You could've provided the English one instead, but I guess you preferred to obfuscate it all. The only source listed is the Russian census, which comes straight from the Russian government. Since you like those sources and clearly are fluent in Russian, you can help me translate the excel file hosted in the Russian Govt website here to check on those "study languages." I'm not the one who throws away sources because they're from "propaganda outlets" here, you are. From the very beginning of the discussion.
lol
You do know that when a person uses "when" it means that they won't do it when the "when" clause isn't true? You have not shown any new info, and also don't seem willing to learn. But no, I won't give the time of day to randos on the internet just because they demand it, get some irl friends.
Please elaborate on why every thing there was wrong, since you're so sure of it. Do a whole a paragraph per statement. I'll be sure to pat you on the back. The mockery was pointing out how ridiculous your statements were, if you didn't catch it.
That's sad.
But although I find you incredibly annoying as a person, your silliness is also entertaining. Like an overly-aggressive Chihuahua or something. Or a Mensa teenager.
No, you didn't get it right. You got it wrong. Congrats. Here. I even hid it in the previous reply for ease of fetching later. I wonder if you can find where the easter egg was.
If you think you're making me angry or something, and you take pleasure in that: no, you just bore me. You're boring, not nearly as witty as you think you are, and about as engaging as playing an idle game while on the bus or waiting for the food to boil. If you're doing this out of some sadism, you're probably going to be more efficient about it by frying ants. If you want to learn, go read a book or two, I recommend "Blackshirts and the Reds." And if you want to help Ukraine, go join the foreign legion. But you're definitely not "schooling" anybody here, specially since it's literally just you and me now, and the Jigglypuff lullaby sounds like the Yellow Parenti speech next to your writing.
Come on mate, surely you have somebody who cares more about what you have to say in your life.
You do understand what justified means? You just gave me examples of the demands, not how they're justified.
I'm sure you don't. I can understand being critical of those things but that is not justification. If your neighbor beats up their wife/girlfriend do you think it would be justified to kick down their door, beat the man into submission , kill their children, thrash the entire apartment and call it a job well done? Would it be more justified if you before-hand told that you would do it?
You do realize you're the one who brought up language levels?
Because in this case the English source looks better than reality?
I guess your Russian is not that good then. It's a blog post that goes over the 2020 population consensus data. That numbers there are official numbers. More than 99% of Russians stated they know only Russian.
I honestly don't have anything else to say about the rest of your comment. It goes too off the tangent to really focus on any individual part there. You're just going on and on about how you don't care but you still keep coming back.
It is definitely justified to ask your neighbour to stop killing your other neighbours, joining Nazis and not letting the people there decide on whether they want to be independent or not. Imagine if the USA had a terrorist group called the keykeykey, and those groups went around killing people for being black or hispanic, and are waging war on the southern regions of Texas. I think you'd agree that it would be justified for Mexico to go "Could you remove keykeykey people from your government? They literally want to kill mexicans and black people in your borders." Wouldn't be so nice for the USA to say "no fuck you" like NATO did, would it? Before you ask me "when did NATO ignore the issue," read your own initial source from nato.int you linked a while back.
Russia has been complaining about that for 10 years now, and Azov only got more entrenched in government while the Donbas war got escalated and fed supplies by NATO. I think you mistake me saying that Russia had some valid points with me thinking that they're perfect and above criticism. But they certainly have a point that declaring war on a separatist region after a coup is incredibly abhorrent, and to do that while glorifying Nazi collaborators like Bandera, toppling monuments to those who defeated the Nazis and having people with swastika tattoos and Nazi symbols in their paramilitary death squad just makes it too on the nose.
Now you're talking about the subsequent war (in very inaccurate terms, I must add), instead of the guarantees that NATO could've done before the war to avoid it happening. But since you like individualistic and simplistic analogies, have another one. If your town has a keykeykey faction going around killing minorities and preventing them from even getting their own representation in government, toppled their preferred mayor and are doing terrorist attacks on the regions most populated by black people and mexicans, would it not be justified for bigger neighbouring city (that has a lot of mexicans) to ask for it to stop over 8 years, and after it proving fruitless to send in a swat team as requested by the local population? If it were me, I'd be begging for that swat team after 1 year, let alone 8.
Now imagine that this bigger city has been blocked from interfering there by another bigger city on the other side, which specifically sells weapons to this keykeykey, and no matter how many pretty speeches on the ~~UN~~ congress they make, the rival city refuses to concede to even disbanding or stopping selling weapons to the keykeykey. You can complain all you want that the Russian forces have "thrashed the apartment" but this war has been going on for 10 years now, not just since 2021. You can probably see how your analogy fails to properly represent the death toll (thousands) and civilian displacement (more than 1 million people) of the Donbass war as "beat their wife," coming right after the 2014 coup, which is why I usually don't do analogies.
I think you misunderstand there buddy, I don't throw away sources. I read them critically. You can give me any sources I can reliably read and we can talk about them. Problem is, when I do talk about them you change subject. Which I bet is why you chose a blog in Russian rather than a text I can read. Unlike you, I don't have Russian language proficiency, and I'd like it if you respected that.
I guess your English is not that good then, I said it's from the census in the reply:
Oh, I see. I guess we will never know why all those statements you threw out which I mocked were "obviously wrong." Nor your taking issue with me paraphrasing you saying that "lots don't know English" as if I made it up. Or your confusing statement that NATO doesn't call the 2014 coup the "Revolution of Dignity." Or that the USA backing a coup doesn't implicate the defence organisation they lead. Or that Russia denies their support for the LPR and DPR. Or your myriad of other bizarre claims that you throw around and then immediately forget about in the following reply.
You throw so much bullshit at such an alarming rate, but don't even acknowledge when shown to be incorrect on each (even complaining that my reply debunking some was too long), which is the hallmark of a bad faith debatebro. Grab a microphone and camera, learn to talk really fast and go own some libs in uni campuses like the Ben Shapiro impersonator you want to be.
Just in case you completely skipped it, here again is a source on the Russian demands before the war that you keep ignoring. Next comment is going to be like "and yet again I see no sources, I'm very smart."
It's a saturday, cooking day. Me staring at the food boiling is just mildly less entertaining than you. Ironically it also requires a bit more effort. It's like morbidly browsing mensa teens on quora, but this one actually has a parasocial relationship with me.
Edit: not to mention, when I did not come back, you came crying to me a week later that I didn't prove you wrong enough, and you have a deep need to prove wrong or be proved wrong. Debatebros are so needy.
Have you read your source? Not a single mention of nazis or the war in Donbas. So go read your own source and then come tell me how those demands are justified.
Good point, I mixed up the articles about this, the Guardian doesn't even list the demands one by one. Here's one that lists all demands, which don't list the Nazis or Donbas directly, though those have been complained about before (see Putin speech earlier on). Then you can see this slightly newer negotiation development which acknowledges the DPR and LPR and demands the end of militarisation there and denazify (and therefore the end of the paramilitary death squads).
Now, you don't seem to understand that Russia can demand whatever it wants, even different things that were not in previous demands. That means that they'll often drop or return to demands depending on their conditions, and I'm not Putin's personal spokesman and don't have to 100% agree with which of their demands is the most important. What prompted this whole conversation is what NATO could've done to de-escalate the conflict. Do you know a single guarantee made by NATO to reduce the likelyhood of war or prevent it going on for another 2 years with the risk of nuclear warfare? I'd be happy to hear it.
Also you seem to confuse the meaning of "justified" there. You asked for sources on what demands have been made, those are up in the first paragraph. They don't justify anything though, only prove that the demands have been made in the past. Now after that you need to verify the veracity of those demands, and here are some sources that you might enjoy 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, on Azov and Nazis being trained and supplied by NATO and the Ukraine government, and just the wikipedia article on the War on Dombas because you don't seem to even be aware of it. Then once you come to a conclusion on whether the demands exist and are factual, you can decide if disbanding the Azov brigade and recognising the LPR and DPR are morally justifiable or not. "what sources?????"
cute how you ignored everything else, though. Makes you look very sensible and intellectual. You should make an account here
How long are we going to talk in circles? I have been explaining how none of the demands are justified. Like you said Russia can demand whatever it wants, but whether those demands should be met depends on how reasonable or justified they are. It should be apparent that what NATO could've done to de-escalate also follows the pattern of satisfying reasonable demands. If none of the demands are reasonable there's nothing NATO can do to de-escalate, right? So, aside from the dissolution of Azov and recognizing LPR and DPR as legitimate (both of which are arguable whether NATO could even do something or if meeting those demands even matter considering they weren't even in the first demands) what else could've NATO done?
Okay I'm going to stop you there. Do a proper analysis. You seem to want me to think your whole argument for you rather than making yourself clear.
First, have the demands ever been made? You flip flop on that a lot.
Then, are the demands based in facts? You also seem to flip flop on whether that is true.
And only then can you tell me whether they are morally justifiable or not.
And after that tell me why or why not can NATO validate and concede on those demands, and whether they're partly to blame for this war.
Since those are the only ones you cited right now (because your memory is very wonky), focus on Azov and the two independent republics.
You have a whole week to write because I won't reply until next Saturday, since I'm no longer cooking. Don't get too lonely.
And back with the vagueness.
We already established demands. The last two comments we've explicitly discussed demands. But don't worry, I've got you. Here's the official draft that we first discussed. Bunch of legal jargon so I'll condense it to some key points. I'll also add the points you brought up afterwards (the nazis and DPR and LPR)
No idea where you get that considering I've pretty consistently said that they're unreasonable (with the exception of the nazi and DPR/LPR thing), which pretty much implies they're not based in facts.
Somehow I have to make your points? Whatever, lazyass.
NATO cannot segregate itself so obviously they can't comply with this.
This one is the most reasonable one, but even that is not that clear cut. Some of those missiles are a part of the missile defense system that NATO won't remove so that's not a fulfillable demand. But NATO has given Russia a chance to come to an agreement here. Back in 2011 Biden visited Moscow to discuss a missile defense co-operation which Russia turned down. Similarly there was the IMF treaty (which also covers some of the missiles in question) that got scrapped under the pretense that Russia wasn't complying with the treaty. So one could make the argument that Russia themselves creates a situation where they could make such demands. Do you need sources for those or are you capable of googling those two things yourself? Eh fuck it, IMF wiki and missile defense co-operation that never got off the ground.
It's again one of those things that seems reasonable except for the fact that NATO countries that are in the EU literally cannot accept this. For instance Georgia is planning to join the EU. If Georgia joins the EU then they get protected by EDA which means it gets protected by the same countries that would here have to agree to never protect Georgia. It's an obvious conflict of interest for EU and thus by extension also for NATO.
Not sure what more NATO could do there. You don't seem to be aware that the US hasn't provided funds to provide arms, training, or other assistance to the Azov Battalion since 2017. The biggest NATO member doesn't support the Nazi battalion. I really don't see what else NATO could do besides wag their finger at Ukraine who claims their battalion is not longer a nazi battalion. But I'll be happy to concede this point because I seriously doubt NATO doing something about the nazis would've deterred Russia. It didn't even make it into the first round of demands.
I'll also concede this point mostly for the same reasons as the previous one. But also because Russia could've just walked into DPR and LPR like they did in Crimea and say "this is mine now". Nothing really happened over Crimea, nothing would've happened over those two regions either. The acknowledgement of those regions wouldn't have prevented the war, Russia wanted to take a bigger bite.
How about no. Those two are the least relevant in the list of demands, they weren't even in first list of demands.
Don't worry. I'll pester you whenever you're online.
!remindme ~~7 days~~ 1984 years
Edit: go away