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Communism

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posting 'tankie' is the new 'woke' slur on a lemmy instance.. (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 1 year ago by lemmyseizethemeans@lemmygrad.ml to c/communism@lemmygrad.ml
139 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

On lemmy.world I posted a comment on how liberals use 'tankie' as an invective to shut down dialogue and received tons of hateful replies. I tried to respond in a rational way to each. Someone's said 'get educated' I responded 'Im reading Norman Finkelstein's I'll burn that bridge when I get there' and tried to keep it civil.

They deleted every comment I made and banned me. Proving my point, they just want to shut down dialogue. Freedom of speech doesn't existing in those 'totalitarian' countries right? But in our 'enlightened' western countries we just delete you.

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[–] spacedout@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Well IMHO both USSR and China shows how gaining workers control and keeping it, or moreso making significant headway towards communism, is just much more complicated. Representative worker ownership of the means of production through the state doesn't have a compelling track record. I think it's dishonest, reactionary and anti intellectual to laugh off arguments like that of comrade spood from the screenshot above.

Edit: checked out my claim on calorie intake and discovered it was dubious. Removed, but letting the main argument stay.

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The USSR was eventually compromised, so it technically failed in that sense, but how is China an example of failing to retain worker control? If you're claiming that capitalists control China's government, I'd challenge you to provide some evidence

[–] spacedout@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lack of press freedom, organization freedom, social credit system, great firewall of China, over 2000 work hours pr year (France has 1500), severely low scores in democracy rankings. This doesn't smell much like worker control, more like authoritarianism. But then again, I'm very much from the West. Happy to be educated on my shortcomings in understanding 👍

[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lack of press freedom

Compared to what country? What exactly are workers not allowed to say or write in China that is allowed in the West?

[Lack of] organization freedom

Compared to what country? There are hundreds of protests every day across China

social credit system

You mean the "system" that's been debunked many times by various Western capitalist media outlets?

great firewall of China

Maintaining Internet sovereignty from the imperial core and having workers in control of the government are not mutually exclusive

over 2000 work hours pr year

Citation needed

severely low scores in democracy rankings

Whose rankings, and why do you consider them relevant?

[–] spacedout@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

The burden of proof is on you, since you are making extraordinary claims. No matter, here:

https://rsf.org/en/ranking china nr 173

https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f?p=1000:50002:0::NO:50002:P50002_COMPLAINT_TEXT_ID:4341007 one of many cases. Are you allowed to start a union in China? Doesn't seem like it.

https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/cs181/projects/2010-11/FreedomOfInformationChina/great-firewall-technical-perspective/index.html Re firewall - information blockade and surveillance != Worker control nor sovereign internet.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9049298 One of thousands scholarly articles on this. Next youre gonna tell me IEEE is revisionist?

https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours 2200 working hours pr year is ridiculous!

You're not really convincing me that China is a good example of worker control. Let me ask you something:

  • What evidence or examples can you provide to support your claim that workers exert significant control over the Chinese state? Are there specific policies, decisions, or instances where workers' influence is evident?
  • How do you reconcile the lack of press freedom and restrictions on organizing independent labor movements with the assertion that workers have control? Do you believe these limitations are inconsequential or have alternative explanations?
  • How would you explain the extensive power and authority of the Chinese Communist Party within the political system, considering your claim that workers are in control? What role does the Party play in shaping policy decisions and governance?
  • Can you elaborate on the role of other influential actors, such as the government bureaucracy, state-owned enterprises, and the military, in the Chinese state? How do these entities interact with workers in terms of decision-making and power dynamics?
  • Are there any studies, scholarly research, or analyses that specifically support the idea that workers hold significant control over the Chinese state? What are the methodologies and findings of these studies?
  • How would you account for China's low rankings in democracy and freedom assessments conducted by international organizations? How do these rankings align with your assertion of workers' control over the state?
  • What are your thoughts on the social credit system, the Great Firewall of China, and other control mechanisms employed by the government? How do these mechanisms affect workers' ability to influence state policies and decisions?
[–] GrainEater@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Which extraordinary claims have I made, exactly? That China isn't a horrible dystopia? The burden of proof isn't on me here, but I'll bite:

https://rsf.org/en/ranking

RSF, the organization that receives significant funding from the NED (an offshoot of the CIA) and various other imperialist organizations? Frankly, even if we ignore that part, why should anyone care about some tier list that doesn't even include justifications?

https://www.ilo.org/dyn/normlex/en/f?p=1000:50002:0::NO:50002:P50002_COMPLAINT_TEXT_ID:4341007

Exactly which part of this page claims that creating a union is illegal in China?

Re firewall - information blockade and surveillance != Worker control nor sovereign internet.

That certainly is an opinion a person can have. My view is that there is no intrinsic connection between the two.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/9049298 One of thousands scholarly articles on this.

From the article: "Data and algorithms for China's social credit system (SCS) are a topic of great current interest. Nonetheless, few details regarding China’s SCS have been officially released. What is clear, however, is that China's social credit system uses broader criteria than Western systems to rank and rate entities. The system is expected to operate through a wider range of mechanisms at the public and private spheres in order to assess the trustworthiness of individuals, businesses, and professional sectors with a goal to reward good behaviors and punish bad behaviors. A full implementation SCS is expected to have wide-ranging impacts on the lives of individuals and organizations than Western-style credit systems. The SCS can be considered an instrument of an overarching ideology that simply reflects the interests of the CCP leaders."

In other words, a bunch of assumptions. Truly an incredible scholarly article.

Next youre gonna tell me IEEE is revisionist?

Being a large journal doesn't mean the research is credible, particularly not for an organization based in the imperial core.

https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours 2200 working hours pr year is ridiculous!

From the page: "Annual hours are based on estimates of weekly working hours and weeks worked."

More guesswork, then. Do you have an actual primary source for this claim, or just opaque analyses from petit bourgeois Westerners?

Comments on post-edit questions:

What evidence or examples can you provide to support your claim that workers exert significant control over the Chinese state? Are there specific policies, decisions, or instances where workers’ influence is evident?

Feel free to look at this, it's a very useful source if you're actually interested in learning

How do you reconcile the lack of press freedom and restrictions on organizing independent labor movements with the assertion that workers have control? Do you believe these limitations are inconsequential or have alternative explanations?

Both of these things have yet to be proven. There's no complete freedom of speech, including press freedom, in any country that has ever existed. I'd challenge you to find me the equivalent of Julian Assange who's being tortured in China right now.

How would you explain the extensive power and authority of the Chinese Communist Party within the political system, considering your claim that workers are in control? What role does the Party play in shaping policy decisions and governance? Are there any studies, scholarly research, or analyses that specifically support the idea that workers hold significant control over the Chinese state? What are the methodologies and findings of these studies?

If you mean the Communist Party of China, they're elected by the proletariat using a bottom-up structure (everyone votes in local elections, the elected representatives vote in higher-level elections, etc.). See the link I mentioned above.

Can you elaborate on the role of other influential actors, such as the government bureaucracy, state-owned enterprises, and the military, in the Chinese state? How do these entities interact with workers in terms of decision-making and power dynamics?

How would you account for China’s low rankings in democracy and freedom assessments conducted by international organizations? How do these rankings align with your assertion of workers’ control over the state?

These "international organizations" aren't very international considering they're based in Western countries and controlled by Western capitalists. I give zero credibility to claims made without any evidence, especially if they're working for a fascist or imperialist cause.

What are your thoughts on the social credit system, the Great Firewall of China, and other control mechanisms employed by the government? How do these mechanisms affect workers’ ability to influence state policies and decisions?

I have yet to see any evidence that the social credit system exists, so there's no point in commenting on that.

The firewall is very good and should be implemented by any country that takes its sovereignty seriously, considering the role of various Amerikan social media companies in coups and colour revolutions around the world; those who can read other languages and want to access foreign servers are fully capable of doing so with a VPN. I have yet to see an example of it having a negative impact on workers' ability to influence the government for any domestic issues.

I hope you're actually asking in good faith; if so, you'll have a look at the GitHub page I linked. If you're going to avoid it and post more citation-free articles from bourgeois media outlets, I don't personally have the patience to keep replying

[–] m532@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Your imperialist mouthpiece sources only confirm one thing: Imperialists HATE china. This confirms that china is on the correct track.

The firewall? Imperialists hate it.

Workers in charge? Imperialists hate it.

Real democracy? Imperialists hate it.

State-owned enterprises? The usa MIC hates it.

The "international organizations"? Owned by usa or its lackeys.

[–] spacedout@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 year ago

Citation needed.

[–] redtea@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Michael Parenti quote.

[–] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Talking to liberals like this is just a massive waste of time and energy. "Why is China ranked low on democracy indices made in the largest carceral state in the world?" Same old talking points regarding social credit. All these "thousands" of articles cite one Chinese source and the rest is a circlejerk of western authors. No news of any person being targeted or denied credit because of this. No real world ramifications documented. Just yellow peril fearmongering about how the sinister Chinese are watching your every move. Please don't come back here.