Something I'm struggling to understand: if people say Hamas does not represent Palestine, why are they the ones representing Gaza diplomatically? Shouldn't the UN or someone step in so that Gazans can decide who their government is first, before anybody can make decisions for them -- especially a group of deeply corrupt oligarchs based in a different country?
this post was submitted on 04 May 2024
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The UN can't step in.
The US protects Israel from UN intervention.
The people of Gaza haven't been able to have an election for about 18 years because of conditions there.
Netanyahu's faction in Israel initially helped Hamas because they wanted to "divide and conquer" so that the Palestinians didn't have one government and couldn't negotiate a two state solution.
Don't forget in March when the cease fire was proposed and China and Russia vetoed it. It isn't as simple as the U.S. being the only outside group at fault for the UN not stepping in.
That's true of March, but if you look at the big picture the US always vetos on the side of Israel's political interests (until the most recent one, which Israel didn't obey anyway). This was going on long before the current genocide.
The US has recently been trying to lobby the ICC on behalf of Israel (neither country are member states). Its support is a big part of why we can't just step in and start enforcing international law eg the Geneva Conventions.
No elections because Hamas wouldn't allow any form of democracy. I know people are (rightfully) focused on Israel right now, but let us not forget what massive pieces of shit the Hamas leadership is. As far as I can tell this is the exact situation they were aiming for. Endless war. A situation we (as Americans or just humans in general, take your pick) have been, are, and most likely will continue to enable and inflame.
Same as it ever was
let us not forget
I was specifically explaining to that person why the international community is not able to intervene via the UN.
Hamas leadership is shitty too, I agree, but in factual terms it simply lacks the power to singlehandedly prevent an international intervention.
They're a last-ditch liberation movement with four discreet wings of praxis, dude. Moreover, the Palestinian Authority is collaborationist with occupying forces - this isn't about manufacturing an endless war, though I'm sure Lockheed Martin and Elbit shareholders would love that - this is about reclaiming tangible avenues for political agency that were either captured or outright denied, violently, by 'Israel'.
You disagree, sure, but you don't seem to understand the inhuman scale, decades of systemic violence, a population has to endure to make violence the only mutually understood language left.
Also - to your point - it doesn't help how many peaceful community leaders, politicians and organizers have been assassinated by the IOF and settlers in the last 75 years. Democracy, as presented by the PA, was never earnest or effectual in occupied Palestine - it was always a membrane of indigenous skin stretched over the occupiers demands.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
Short answer, it's complicated because the last time Palestine had an election this is who the Palestinian people voted for. But there also hasn't been an election like that in a very long time
Also, Israel and the US didn't like their choice, hence the PA which is considered highly corrupt and propped up by Israel and the US.
So for better or Elmore, Hamas is who the Palestinian people voted for (at one point). Their designation as a terrorist organization is largely a western government thing. The UN does not recognize Hamas as a terrorist organization.
This is true, but it seems to me like an Italy in WW2 kind of situation (sorry for all the WW2 parallels, folks) where a government was voted in but overstayed its welcome, to put it mildly.
You are projecting how you'd like to interpret things into a situation where the facts on the ground simply don't agree with you.
Hamas has around 90% approval in Gaza:
I agree with the sentiment and would love to see free and fair democratic elections in Palestine. But if public sentiment if the governed is what we're going by, then both the Republican and Democratic party in the US are less legitimate than Hamas. Weird metaphor but there it is. If elections were tomorrow, Hamas would win in a landslide. It's part of the reason why Israel and the US have prevented elections for as long as they have.
Hamas has around 90% approval in Gaza:
I'm sorry, but that's not what the article says. 90% of respondents think Abbas should resign, but that is separate from "approval". FTA:
Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated. A large majority believed Hamas’ claims that it acted to defend a major Islamic shrine in Jerusalem against Jewish extremists and win the release of Palestinian prisoners. Only 10% said they believed Hamas has committed war crimes, with a large majority saying they did not see videos showing the militants committing atrocities.
Sorry about that, you are correct.
Regardless, the article does show significant support for Hamas among the Palestinian people.
The Palestinian people are faced with the option of a corrupt puppet government obviously controlled by Israel and the US, or an extreme, basically terrorist but at least they'll fight for you Hamas.
if your goal is survival who do you pick?
Regardless, the article does show significant support for Hamas among the Palestinian people.
Do you think there might be a good reason for that? Say, their children getting wiped out by the thousands?
💯
Fighting against an Apartheid, truly the most "extreme" people lmao.
Not fighting means you're guaranteed to be fully Genocided and Ethnically Cleansed. As we can see in the West Bank. The only option left for Palestinians is to fight, or roll over and die.
Can we really trust those figures? I'm sure the Kims in the DPRK enjoy very high "approval ratings" too. What is the cost of saying you disapprove?
Yeah you should probably trust those figures instead of rolling with your own head cannon of what you want things to be. I don't see anything in the methods that are particularly suspect, do you?
You need to be open to a reality where the Palestinian people support Hamas because historically, they have. It also shows in polling. Keep in mind the fact that there haven't been elections in Palestine for as long as there have , is part of a strategy by Israel and the US to delegitimize Hamas.
Like, think about your sentiment for a moment. Your basically arguing that Palestine picked wrong and the occupying, colonial settler project know better who should lead the Palestineian people than the Palestinian people.
You are either in favor of democracy, and you work with whom people elect because that's how it works, or you are against democracy. You can't really have it both ways.
The people they picked don't even live there and do little but embezzle funds... Of course they picked "wrong". I am in favor of democracy and I don't think what's happening now in Gaza is democratic at all.
I am in favor of democracy
Unless the people pick wrong.
If you genuinely believe that a group voted in 18 years ago who don't live in the country and haven't held an election since then can be considered a legitimate government, we're never going to see eye to eye on this.
And who is stopping the Palestineian people from holding another election?
Like you don't seem to notice how deep in the paint you are regarding both US and Israelli propaganda on this issue.
That would be nice but Palestinians never get a seat at the table when it comes to talks about things in the region. They were left out of the Abraham accords which was meant to normalize relations in the region with Israel and they'll be left out of this because Israel wants to keep being able to steam roll them. Not let them have any kind of platform or position to be able to negotiate.
Not let them have any kind of platform or position to be able to negotiate.
And yet Israel is negotiating with Hamas?..
Yeah because that legitimizes Hamas and let's them keep using the reasoning that their cleansing of Gaza is to go after Hamas. Letting a terrorist group have a platform just makes them look better cause they can keep going see how bad these guys are, we have to kill everyone there to get rid of them.
We can support Palestinian people without devolving into leftwing conspiracism.
What part of that is conspiracy? Israel is using Hamas as justification for their genocide in the region. If Israel negotiated with the people of Gaza (in whatever form that would take) rather than Hamas it would invalidate what they've been doing. Negotiating with Hamas continues projecting the false image that they're after just the terrorists when they're pretty clearly going after civilians as well.
And if Israel and Hamas come to an agreement, do you admit you are wrong?
Nothing I said above says there won't be an agreement. I could see an agreement happening especially with the situation in the US and the ICJ considering warrants. That doesn't change why they negotiate with Hamas and not the people.
Does it matter who they negotiate with if it ends up stopping the war and saving lives?
Yeah israel is "negotiating" out of free will and not because Hamas had to kidnap hundreds of people to get them at the negotiating table.
For the same reason that dictatorial regimes are still negotiated with to end wars.
"They represent the popular will" and "They represent the ability of the region to continue fighting" are two different things.
In this situation, they’re the ones holding the hostages, and they did win the elections in Gaza in 2006, after-which they basically removed anyone else that could challenge them in Gaza. The Palestinian Authority still represents the West Bank, but they’re not holding hostages nor could they guarantee their return if they were negotiating. Hamas is a useful tool for Israel because they give Israel exactly the kinds of excuses they need to barge in and take more land.
Whoever represents a country is whoever has military control over the land and population inhabiting that country. Very rarely is there any other option (e.g. exiled leader).
Also, the UN is mostly a tool of the 5 veto-wielding members of the security council, who've done nothing to prevent Israel's genocide — They are incapable of representing, and don't deserve to represent, the Palestinian people.
Whoever represents a country is whoever has military control over the land and population inhabiting that country. Very rarely is there any other option (e.g. exiled leader).
Belgium in WW1, France and Greece during WW2, Spain during Franco, and I'm sure there are others... It isn't that uncommon. I'm not suggesting the UN occupies Gaza permanently, but Gazans should be able to decide who represents them (and I sure hope it isn't Hamas).
And what if they do pick Hamas (again)?
If they vote Hamas in during a free and fair election, that is completely their right... But it'll also be the last vote they cast before Gaza is turned into a parking lot.
they vote Hamas in during a free and fair election, that is completely their right
They did. What you are describing is what happened. There was an election, and the Palestinian people voted in Hamas. Since that time, the US and Israel have prevented further elections, because the very likely outcome is that Hamas would win.. again.
So if you would accept Hamas next time, why is it that you don't accept Hamas now?
So if you would accept Hamas next time, why is it that you don’t accept Hamas now?
I said why earlier -- whatever the circumstances under which Hamas was voted in, this has long since passed any pretense of democracy, and the legitimacy of Hamas as a government today is questionable, to say the least.
Ok so it's the US and Israel who have prevented further elections.
You keep making this weird leap regarding the legitimacy of Hamas that you don't seem to notice. It's not Hamas preventing elections, it's the US and Israel, and there preventing them because they basically know Hamas will win.
There is no question around the legitimacy of Hamas except in US and Israeli propaganda. The pretense of democracy is the one you are supposing where a people's choice is only valid if it's the one you preferred they make.
You keep making this weird leap regarding the legitimacy of Hamas that you don’t seem to notice. It’s not Hamas preventing elections, it’s the US and Israel, and there preventing them because they basically know Hamas will win.
That doesn't make any sense, because they are already treating Hamas as the legitimate government. Why would they be so reluctant to allow something that would yield the same outcome that they accept today?
There is no question around the legitimacy of Hamas except in US and Israeli propaganda. The pretense of democracy is the one you are supposing where a people’s choice is only valid if it’s the one you preferred they make.
Likud are the ones who have been propping up Hamas. I'm sure the US would like them gone, though.
There is no question around the legitimacy of Hamas except in US and Israeli propaganda.
Jesus fucking Christ.
France ended up occupied by Germany in WW2 with the deeply unpopular Vichy govt.
Gaza is in the position of an occupied territory.
The US blocks most UN resolutions about Gaza.
Meanwhile Gaza itself has at this point lost 60% of its buildings (75% in Gaza city) and has reached famine conditions in the north.
To be actually declared a famine, an area needs 20% of its people to be starving and 30% of its children to show visible signs like muscle wasting.
They are in no condition to hold a free and fair election right now. They need urgent help.
I don't see how an election could happen during the current war? A long term cease fire is necessary to organize. So now if hamas who is part of the conflict and the one that fight Israel is not part of the negaciation who will?
Israel is refusing a permanent ceasefire and Netanyahu has said that he will invade Rafah even if a ceasefire is reached (lol).
Unless Biden puts enough pressure on israel to force a permanent ceasefire the Genocide will continue. Hamas is never going to accept a "temporary pause" in exchange for all the hostages they would be brain damaged to do so.