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Seems like time and time again, Nintendo is always trying to sell games to an audience of people who do not wish to play video games. For a sequel, I figured Nintendo should focus on their core audience of Pikmin fans but it seems like they're always changing things to appeal to people who don't play games while in return alienating the people who want more sophisticated gameplay and challenges.

What are your thoughts?

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[-] Orvanis@lemm.ee 53 points 11 months ago

I absolutely loved the Pkimin 4 Demo. Having played all 3 prior games, 4 resonated better with more emphasis on exploration and removing the "you have X days" pressure. Made it far more enjoyable personally.

The only thing I really wish they hadn't eliminated was proper co-op. My son was very disappointed that all I could do was throw rocks and items rather than run around the world with him.

[-] emeralddawn45@discuss.tchncs.de 18 points 11 months ago

What? That was going to be the main reason I played this. It was so good for me and my girlfriend to play togsther, she loved it. What the fuck is with these companies not making coop games anymore? Do they think noone has friends?

[-] Orvanis@lemm.ee 6 points 11 months ago

Technically Pikmin 3 also didn't have co-op when it first released, that was a feature added with Pikmin 3 Deluxe. However definitely extremely disappointed they removed it for 4. Maybe it can be added later, but likely not until they release DLC or another Deluxe version...

[-] JoumanaKayrouz@lemmy.world 37 points 11 months ago

I played the Demo and wanted to die from boredom. Why are tutorials so long these days? Let me play the damn game, I'll figure it out.

[-] SgtAStrawberry@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago

An so fucking railroaded. Like there must be a level between no tutorial at all and you can only press this specific button exactly when we say so and do it on repeat for 3 hours.

[-] Hextic@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago

All games need a "this isn't my first rodeo" option.

[-] Bonesince1997@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago

Civilization does something like this, and one better. Like a returning player who isn't new to the series but new to the specific game. I don't recall how well it worked at showing you relevant things, but if it only showed you things you didn't already know, that'd be what we're looking for! Hard to pull off sometimes. Other times it's just a ridiculous under estimatation of skill with long, skip mashing tutorials!

[-] CoderKat@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago

That's the best. A lot of sequels are 80% the same controls and mechanics and sometimes I just need a reminder of that.

Though some games could really use some form of really brief tutorial that just reminds me in a forgiving setting how to play, but doesn't assume I need a lengthy and agonizingly slow tutorial. Civilization games don't have that problem, but a lot of action games do. I'll go back to the game cause a DLC is out and I can only remember bits and pieces of the controls and combat is way unforgiving cause it's supposed to be end game DLC.

[-] drcouzelis@lemmy.zip 4 points 11 months ago

A lot of sequels are 80% the same

"Welcome to the world of POKÉMON!"

EVERY SINGLE GAME. XD

[-] CoderKat@lemm.ee 4 points 11 months ago

Ugh, pokemon is the worst at this. They've somehow gotten only more handholdy. Yet they bizarrely don't even try to explain the advanced concepts in most games (SV's school was the first in game reference for some of those, though it's still not that great of an explanation).

[-] DrQuint@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

Reminds me of the Vampire Survivors guy saying he really liked One Step From Eden's main menu and wanted to do the same.

Open game. Press X three times. You're playing. Perfection.

[-] picandocodigo@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

I didn't play the demo and I went into the game blind today. I'm feeling this so much I want to abandon the game. I hope it'll be fun but the start has been excruciating so far. 10 seconds of tutorial/dialog every 5 seconds of gameplay. WTF?! It's intense, I'm pushing through, but I'm not having fun yet...

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[-] Pulptastic@midwest.social 29 points 11 months ago

Most Nintendo games aren't worth $60. Most console games aren't worth $60.

[-] Saneless@lemmy.world 17 points 11 months ago

Executive: great analysis. $70 it is

[-] steal_your_face@lemmy.ml 11 points 11 months ago

I heard you can download and emulate Nintendo games for free and they play at better resolution and frame rate when emulated. I don’t know anything about that though….

[-] Kerred@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Hollow Knight felt like a $60 game I got for $15.

[-] Derproid@lemm.ee 5 points 11 months ago

I have 3,000 hours in RimWorld, almost no games are worth buying these days for me.

[-] DrQuint@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

Oh come on, games don't need ludicrous thousand plus hour play times to be worth the money.

... But I do still have 135 hours in Against the Storm, the last game I bought, just saying...

[-] Derproid@lemm.ee 2 points 11 months ago

Haha I know, it's just hard for me to find value in a game where I get less than 10 hours per dollar in these days. Like Skyrim, Fallout 4, Stardew Valley, and Terraria could all meet at least that.

[-] steve228uk@lemmy.world 23 points 11 months ago

It feels like these games are just marketed to people who already know what Pikmin is. They’ve put 4 out at an absolutely dreadful time too… The average player is still chugging through TOTK!

[-] Nintendianajones64@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago

Tears of the Kingdom is going to last me until the end of the year. I'm taking as long as I need to finish it. Especially since I just found a damn colosseum in the depths where I have to fight 4 God damn Lynels. God I hate those guys lol

[-] Kiosade@lemmy.ca 5 points 11 months ago

(Psst… it’s actually 5 lynels…good luck 😉)

[-] Cryst@lemmy.ca 2 points 11 months ago
[-] Kiosade@lemmy.ca 1 points 11 months ago

Yep! The last one is a cracked out one with rock armor. Strong boi

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[-] steve228uk@lemmy.world 4 points 11 months ago

I've not even found a Lynel in that game yet!

[-] thoriq@mastodon.social 1 points 11 months ago

@Nintendianajones64 @steve228uk it’s a hard challenge if you aren’t prepared lol, I had to use every trick I had to beat it. You do get majoras mask though which is worthwhile.

[-] PenguinTD@lemmy.ca 8 points 11 months ago

Well that's Nintendo for you. I got disappointed by the Yoshi and Kirby going kindergarten level difficulty, so I haven't buy any sequal on switch. It looks cute and have nice mechanism, and maybe some harder extra level that's not required for completion dotted around. But it's not enough, like even little big planet have more variety of difficulty than wiiu/switch Yoshi/Kirby. And LBP isn't a hard game to begin with.

Cute and hard game with proper progression is how you curate a new generation of players. Cause they ain't playing gore flying hack-and-slash from 5yo.

[-] TheMinions@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

Are you talking about Yoshi’s Crafted World? I found some of those bosses genuinely hard when you didn’t play on Easy mode with the wings on.

Two player also made it a lot easier, but my second player was my 5 year old, and he definitely couldn’t have beat it without help.

[-] Grangle1@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Yeah, designing games geared towards kids and younger audiences isn't just about story/aesthetics, it's also about difficulty. Most young kids don't have the attention span or critical thinking skills to sit there and try to beat an enemy or puzzle that older kids or adults would find genuinely challenging.

I could split Nintendo games (I've played) into three groups based on target audience:

Younger: cute art style, simple challenges, short game play for young children; Kirby, Yoshi

All Ages: easy-to-learn basics to get you through the main game, but there's more complex stuff and greater challenge if you want it; mostly pick-up-and-play but not TOO short; Mario, Pokemon, DK Country, Super Smash Bros.

Older Gamers: more (relatively) mature subject matter, challenge from the beginning, complex mechanics and/or puzzles or both to get teen/adult brains going; Metroid, Xenoblade, Fire Emblem, Zelda BotW and TotK (previous Zelda games would be in my All Ages tier)

[-] CoderKat@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Zelda BotW and TotK (previous Zelda games would be in my All Ages tier)

I'd consider frankly pretty much all Zelda games more mature. I haven't played them all, but the pattern I've noticed is that the more recent games feel easier (though the open world makes them more time consuming). The bigger puzzle dungeons of older games could get quite difficult sometimes. Easy to get lost and confused. The 2D games often were extra cryptic and combat was more punishing.

As a kid, I bought oracle of ages as my first ever Zelda game and couldn't figure out where to go after the first dungeon, so had to sell it. As an adult, I beat it and the seasons equivalent just to see what I missed out on. I had to use a lot of save states and recall some bizarre minigame that was just horrible, horrible, horrible (90% of my save states would have been that one minigame). I had to Google multiple times where to go. I dunno how kids could do it. Sometimes I wondered if it was all a ploy to make kids call that pay number for video game tips that predated the internet answering all these questions. Also, I seriously question why I even put myself through that. It wasn't that fun.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

I love Pikmin, always have. I will always go out of my way to Pikup one of these games.

[-] wccrawford@lemmyonline.com 7 points 11 months ago

I think the tutorial for Pikmin 4 is boring and painful for people who already know the deal. And I think the constant, slow interruptions absolutely kill the pacing, at least at the beginning.

I'm there for the gameplay loop, not to read the same recycled trash dialogue that every Pikmin game has, and it's ridiculously similar to other basic games, too.

The devs seem to think I'd rather watch the UI do pretty things than play the game, and they couldn't be more wrong. Maybe that crap snappy, let me skim through dialogue at rocket speed, and let's get on with the fun.

[-] JoumanaKayrouz@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

I've never played the Pikmin games before. I played the Demo and almost drop kicked my switch out into the front yard. The talking kept going and going and going. I kept playing because my daughter wanted to play it, but eventually I handed her the controller and left the room because it was the most boring Nintendo experience I have ever had. Terrible game IMO.

[-] Eddie@lemmy.lucitt.social 4 points 11 months ago

What gets me the most is that we're talking about the same company who created Super Mario Bros., a game famous for it's lack of tutorial. People call the level design "genius" because it teaches you what power-ups and enemies are immediately.

What in the actual frick happened to this? Didn't Miyamoto create Mario for crying out loud? What happened to these core principles? Money? Demographics for children?

[-] PoopingCough@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Not that I'm advocating for super in-depth tutorials or anything, but comparing the complexity of SMB to something like Pikmin is a bit disingenuous. In the former your options for inputs are run and jump, which is a lot less than having to corral little plant dudes using a whistle and splitting them up/using them for specific purposes.

Having said that I think the best compromise is to have a tutorial that tells you what you can do/what buttons do what without making you actually do those things just to check if you're too dumb to understand simple instructions. Also space out the instructions so that they happen while actually playing the game instead of in one big tutorial section right at the beginning.

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[-] thorbot@lemmy.world 5 points 11 months ago

I never really played Pikmin as a kid so I don't have the same nostalgia-hook like I do for Mario and Zelda games. I'm not trying to spend $60 on a game I don't know if I will like and don't have prior experience with, especially when I can get a baller indie game on my Steam Deck for $10-$15.

[-] echo64@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

I didn't pick it up because it's a full priced game, and it's just pikmin again. Great there's a dog now.

Nintendo has a big sequelitis problem these days, for every new idea they have they have a bare bones sequel to some ip that's the same thing as ever.

[-] PoopingCough@lemmy.world 3 points 11 months ago

That's kind of a strange complaint, given that there's always so many complaints about Nintendo ruining core gameplay mechanics in sequels. Lots of us want sequels as long as the gameplay loop hasn't changed much beyond adding a few new features. I would kill for another Paper Mario with PPM 64/Thousand Year Door mechanics but they're just straight up averse to doing exactly what you're accusing them of for a lot of their game series.

[-] echo64@lemmy.world 1 points 11 months ago

it's not a strange opinion, it's just different from yours. we have different opinions. you want sequels that are the same, I want sequels that are different.

[-] Clown_Tempura@lemmy.world 2 points 11 months ago

Nintendo has this weird habit of thinking extremely little of their players and assuming they are simply too stupid to play video games, and therefore need to have their hands held or be distracted with flashy gimmicks. Their actual base gameplay mechanics are some of the best in the business but they rarely actually ask the player to apply themselves. I don't think anyone likes to be condescended to. If it weren't for Metroid and Zelda, I don't think I'd put up with their underpowered shield tablet.

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this post was submitted on 19 Jul 2023
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