this post was submitted on 29 Aug 2024
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Tide Pods (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 months ago by TokenBoomer@lemmy.world to c/progressivepolitics@lemmy.world
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[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 11 points 2 months ago (4 children)

tbf, some people seem to think that the only reason communism failed was because the evil imperial west successfully destroyed all the innocent and fully-functional communists. When someone refuses to acknowledge the Stalinist descent into totalitarian disaster or the CCP's decision to independently move towards some privatization in the name of efficiency, that's not a great sign of a clear-minded person. You know, I don't think N Korea would be a socialist paradise if only we lifted our sanctions.

It's complicated, ultimately.

[–] garpujol@discuss.online 4 points 2 months ago

Greed always corrupts. When the tanks come out to force everyone to be equal, eventually those who control the tanks realize they can do whatever they want in the name of “communism” and it always turns into a totalitarian government.

Communism is great, when everyone benefits. But if there is a single person who has more than their neighbor, the system failed.

[–] stoly@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Ultimately the problem is human nature and not the economic system.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

[–] stoly@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Marx was naive. I got banned from .ml for saying that.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago

Somehow, I think Marx would agree with you.

[–] puppy@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Agree with some if your points but North Korea is not a socialist country. Their self proclamation doesn't make it one in ths same way that I can proclaim to the the smartest person in the world without it being true.

Having democracy (voting rights) is a prerequisite for a socialist society. Some forms of socialism has a proxy government, but that government is elected by the people. The most basic requirement for socialism is a country where its workers decide on its production. North Korea is a dictatorship and has a command economy. Saying North Korea is socialist is akin to saying England in the middle ages were socialist. Both countries were governed by dictators and everything was decided by the kings court. We call that Fuedlism, not Socialism, don't we?

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Fair. I was using it as an example mainly because I have seen the argument before that N Korea only suffers due to the west. There is certainly much more to it, overall.

[–] puppy@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's an incorrect example. For North Korea to be a Socialist paradise, it has to be Socialist first.

It's like me saying the US would've been a Socialist paradise were it not for Trump's presidency. It doesn't have a base to construct a hypothesis.

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes, I agree. I'm not going to go into the history of communist movements turning into dictatorships every time I see someone try to pin N Korean living conditions exclusively on western action though.

I'm not trying to make an argument about the theoretical workability of a socialist society, I am trying to make an argument about the success rate of communist movements at accomplishing that, and how it is more than western action that makes it challenging.

[–] puppy@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

That's a bad faith argument.

This way of binary thinking also has a Capitalsm equivalent. Some say Capitalsm ALWAYS end up in neo-liberal economies and with late stage Capitalsm with oligarchs and the death of the free market. For example oligarchs control most of the US economy and most economic policies are put forward with lobbying money. Is has become increasingly harder to start a small business in the US, hence US citizens' tendancy to romantacize the Europe. If you say that Socialist movements ALWAYS end up in dictatorships then Capitalist moves should ALWAYS end up in late stage Capitalsm and the death of the free market.

In reality no contry is purely Capitalist or Socialist anymore. Otherwise the US wouldn't put tariffs on Chinese cars to protect GM, Ford and now Tesla. A direct contradiction to free market policies. Meanwhile there isn't a huge tariff especially for US cars in China. China ended up leaning towards Capitalism than before. Scandinavian countries absorbed a lof of leftist policies into their modern day government. Most of Vienna's houses are government owned. Everyone has mixed policies because there are good in both Capitalist and Socialist principles. You just have to be implement whatever is good for the people and economy in a given climate.

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I did not say that socialism always results in dictatorship, though I can see how a quick reading of my wording could be misconstrued that way. I said I am not going to go into the history of it happening (sometimes), in all the cases that I witness someone making a certain argument.

I just think you are inaccurately identifying my position and my arguments. But ultimately I do agree with you.

[–] puppy@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Oh ok. Sorry for sounding a bit harsh but it did seem to me the way you mentioned.

[–] hark@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The US moved towards socialism with the federal government instituting social (emphasis on social) programs, so does that mean the US is a failed capitalist state?

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

No, it takes much more than that to be a failed state. Their shift away from a command economy to a hybrid system is a lot more notable than our rather pathetic public services sector though.

[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 3 points 2 months ago (4 children)

I mean, both could be brainwashed. Or neither. It's funny, but rationally pretty moot.

Just because many people say the same thing does not mean it's false. And just because you're the only who disagrees does not mean you're right.

Or maybe it's rather a matter of taste and opinion.

Though I don't see many communist paradises where people try to migrate in masses. While many non-communist countries exist which have such a pull. Ah, silly me, that's probably due to all the propaganda only.

[–] HomerianSymphony@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

Though I don't see many communist paradises where people try to migrate in masses.

You mean en masse.

[–] HomerianSymphony@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

While many non-communist countries exist which have such a pull.

Is that your measure for assessing how good a system of government is? Because many Westerners like to retire in Thailand, and it alternates between being a blatant military dictatorship and a thinly veiled military dictatorship.

[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 1 points 2 months ago

Right, I should have clarified that. No, not my measure, I agree with you on that. It was just some measure, which seemed better than "do the opposite of what others say". Because actions matter more than words, or so.

[–] stupidcasey@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Correct both are mind washed but the truth is far worse, the truth is there is no perfect system and by that I mean with a large enough system you are have to harm someone so to someone every rule law or procedure is harmful so everyone is correct the other side is evil, so the only sane thing to do is pass laws that are beneficial to ourselves of course that is incredibly selfish but and the logical thing to do from a societal perspective is do what benefits the majority, but we are not the majority we are an individual and that is what is best for us.

The only reason this will get downvoted is the majority disagrees but as an individual you know it to be true.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Where is this communist paradise you speak of, all I’ve seen are socialist countries?

[–] Spzi@lemm.ee 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The comic you posted speaks of communism, not socialism, so I went with that term.

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago

If communism doesn’t work, we should try democratic socialism.

[–] Kaboom@reddthat.com 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Fucking tankies. No better than Nazis imo

[–] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago

Reds and pinkos are worse, but not as bad as capos.

[–] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world -3 points 2 months ago

I believe anything people tell me without thinking about it. Now hand over those delicious bubbly candies.

[–] samokosik@lemmy.world -3 points 2 months ago

I mean, communism is objectively bad.