this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2024
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-24
Is The United State Fighting A Proxy War? (lemmy.ml)
submitted 2 months ago by wuphysics87@lemmy.ml to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
33 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

As an American, the US participation in the Ukrainian conflict as well as the Palestinian genocide are beyond reproach. Many describe them as proxy wars, but I'm not there yet.

During the Cold War, there was the Afghanistan, Vietnam, South America, Cuba, etc. These were proxy wars because there was a clear adversary on the other side. The Soviet Union.

Now, who is that? Russia? China? Who is "our enemy"? I see it was war is good for business and projection of power.

Am I wrong?

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[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 26 points 2 months ago (2 children)

Ukraine is a proxy war against Russia.

Supporting Israel is the point, it's not a proxy.

They need Israel to control North Africa, the Arab Peninsula, and much of West Asia. They need Israel to control the movement of goods and people from Africa into Asia and Europe. They need Israel to control the Red Sea and help project power into the lower Mediterranean. They need Israel as their laboratory for surveillance technology and oppressive systems of control. Israel is the unsinkable aircraft carrier, the most valuable asset the US has. Israel is more important than most US states tbh

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This betrays a startling lack of awareness of just how extensive US partnerships are across the globe. The US has sent tens of billions of dollars in military and economic aid to Egypt. Close ties with Saudi Arabia. Close ties with Morocco. Most Mediterranean countries are in NATO, actually. This isn't even to speak of our own military bases littered throughout both Africa and the Middle East.

Does anything going from Asia to Africa even go through Israel? I'd think they'd usually take sea routes through the Indian Ocean. Do we really need some unsinkable aircraft carrier anymore when we have literally dozens of our own airstrips all over the region?

That said, I do agree with your first two points. Ukraine is a proxy war, and supporting Israel is the point. Not sure it's actually more important than any actual US territory though.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Saudi Arabia actually had consequences after the assassination of Jamal Koshogshi. Minor ones, but still.

Israel will never have consequences. It is just vastly more important - in fact, Israel is a tool to control Egypt and Saudi Arabia in the first place!

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

If Israel was that useful as a tool to control Egypt, sure would like those billions of dollars back...

And I have a feeling they'll have some consequences. We may not all see the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict the same way, I have a feeling you're not aware of any of the Arab atrocities from the early 20th century, before Israel was ever a nation. But this time they've lost a lot of support in the US for the first time in our history, and that will likely have an impact on future political calculations.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The bipartisan consensus on Israel is ironclad, elections don't matter nearly as much as Israel does to the US empire.

I do no expect anything to change unless Israel, itself, enters a crisis that would require direct boots the ground. That might be the breaking point. Otherwise? Unlimited US/NATO bloc support.

Israel isn't the only tool they need to control the likes of Egypt and Saudi Arabia - they need direct support too, especially Egypt, which would probably be controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood without US support. But, Israel is still critical as part of the broader strategy.

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I guess you don't think our politicians care which of them are in charge? And I'm not so sure about ironclad, we've withheld aid in past decades.

I really question exactly how Israel has significant influence over Egypt. Much less Saudi Arabia, which isn't even a neighbor and has significantly more wealth and influence than Israel does.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Saudi Arabia learned its lesson in the Yom Kippur War. Do not fuck with the USs unsinkable aircraft carrier.

As for Egypt, Israel is extremely important for transporting natural gas and, to a lesser extent, important as a trading partner. They also cooperate on security matters wrt terrorism.

Of course, the US is also very important for ensuring all its other puppets in the region play nice with Israel. Israel, itself, has influence because it is an extension of the US and more important than any mere puppet.

[–] Carrolade@lemmy.world -1 points 2 months ago

The Saudis barely participated in Yom Kippur, from some brief googling they deployed a single battalion that saw a little bit of fighting in the Golan Heights. I honestly wasn't even aware they had participated militarily.

Their much bigger impact was the oil embargo against the US, which caused rather famous gas shortages here and one of the most severe recessions we've ever had, during the Nixon years. Perhaps seeing the rest of the coalition demolished was enough? Though there were clear reasons for the Israeli victory that aren't that difficult to understand. It's far more specific than just Israel strong or something like that. That oil embargo ended up proving the power of OPEC though, dramatically strengthening the Saudi's position on the global stage, which persists to this day.

Regarding NG, the main pipeline through the area for exporting Egyptian NG actually takes some pains to go around Israel, rather than through it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Gas_Pipeline

[–] sonori@beehaw.org 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

I mean Saudi Arabia also does all those things, most of them far better than Israel ever could due to geography, and at a far lower cost. If Isreal snapped out of existence tomorrow, between Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Greece European and North American power projection in the Middle East and North Africa remains almost entirely unchanged.

Honestly the military benefits of supporting Isreal while real are definitely not as important as the domestic political benefits to the US, which is to say that the conservatives like Isreal because it provides a nice place to deport all the Jews to while also maintaining precedent for an enthnostate with race based citizenship, and the Democrats like it because they get a lot of gifts, friends, and in their minds potential voters, all for doing exactly what the conservatives want them to do.

[–] redrumBot@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Israel has been a key USA asset for destabilizing the region from, at leat, the times of Kissinger as secretary of state and to stop socialist panarab projects like then ones of Nasser or the Ba'aths parties.

[–] sonori@beehaw.org 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Yes, but it’s presence in the region being a destabilizing force is a very different thing to being primarily an unsinkable aircraft carrier as the commenter I responded to described it.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

An unsinkable aircraft carrier is a destabilizing force, what are you talking about?

[–] sonori@beehaw.org 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Politically, major outside military forces like aircraft carriers tend to be viewed at a stabilizing force in the local region, but more to the point Redrum and I were talking about Isreal’s primarily being useful politically rather than militarily to destabilize and break up leftist and Soviet groups in the region.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago

The presence of a Sword of Domacles hanging over the heads of every country in the region does have political uses, not just military ones.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Saudi Arabia is kept in line by Israel's presence in the region. OPEC was once a thorn in the US's side and now they're under control, and Israel was key for that.

[–] sonori@beehaw.org 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

I think the US becoming the largest oil producer in the world might have had more to do with the decline in OPEC’s influence on the US but what do I know?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Israel was critical for disempowering OPEC in the Yom Kippur War. We would not have gotten where we are today, with OPEC firmly under control, without Israel's critical role in the conflict.

[–] sonori@beehaw.org 0 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Except OPEC still had significant power and influence in the US well after the Yom Kippur war ended in 1973, and said war didn’t even involve the majority of the OPEC member countries.

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago

Israel isn't the only reason OPEC has been brought to heel, but it was the last time OPEC ever used an oil embargo afaik

The spice must flow.

[–] nooneescapesthelaw@mander.xyz 10 points 2 months ago

Watr in Ukraine is proxy war

The reality is that NATO and the United States, are now, without question, in a proxy war with Russia," former CIA director and US defense secretary Leon Panetta told the ABC.

"Maybe it's not a direct war, but it certainly is a proxy war, in terms of their efforts to make Putin pay a price.

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The US is the common enemy. Your just looking at it from the other side.

[–] wuphysics87@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 months ago

That's a very good point

[–] rusticus@lemm.ee 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Dude, Russia IS the enemy. If you let Ukraine fall, the Baltic states and Poland are next. Russia ADMITTED as much. And China looks at Taiwan. Do you not understand the idea of democracy and deterrence?

[–] jewbacca117@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Interesting take on Ukraine and Palestine. Russia invades Ukraine, and the US supplies the defender. Israel invades Palestine and the US supplies the attacker. I am curious how you find both beyond reproach.

[–] LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 2 months ago

Ukraine was attacking its own citizens for years before Russia invaded, after it was threatening to join NATO and install nukes etc.

[–] plinky@hexbear.net 4 points 2 months ago

Ukraine is a proxy war (for usa interests), israel is a genocidal ally (as it’s acting in its own interests). Both would fold without USA support, but I think they are somewhat different. Ukraine wouldn’t dare to shit on usa, or do something against usa word, and they perform their politics completely dependent on usa. Israel acts and behaves with much more impunity, and its alignment with usa interests is very meh

[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 4 points 2 months ago

Does a bear proxy shit in the woods?

[–] LarkinDePark@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 2 months ago

Yes Russia and China and any other states that disobey.

[–] The_Che_Banana@beehaw.org 0 points 2 months ago

Ugh, my take is the US is supporting Ukraine because Putin's a cunt and is trying to destabilize the west.

And because Ukraine started kicking their asses the moment they invaded, which is amazing given the lukewarm response the west had at the beginning of the invasion.

[–] redrumBot@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 months ago (1 children)

In Ukraine, yes. The US is fighting a proxy war against Russia. The last 30 years of NATO expansion and USA animosity against Russia are enough evidence in my opinion.

In Palestine, no. Israel and the USA are committing a Genocide against the Palestinians, or at least, is a USA backed Genocide.

[–] tired_n_bored@lemmy.world 2 points 2 months ago

"Nato expansion" lmao