this post was submitted on 29 Jul 2023
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[–] Filthmontane@lemmy.world 84 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You're showing statues of Lenin in countries in which the Dictatorship of the Proletariat failed to cede power to the working class and establish a socialist economic structure.

When Lenin took power, Russia had nothing. It was in the middle of WW1, there were regular famines, almost everyone was illiterate, and it was in no condition to establish a socialist economic plan. So, Lenin created a temporary economic model called The Dictatorship of the Proletariat. This is a centrally planned economy designed to rapidly develop infrastructure and industry in a country that has none. Lenin was already ceding power to the worker's councils when he died. Stalin decided he liked The Dictatorship of the Proletariat and did not cede power back to the worker's councils.

Those countries never experienced Communism. They never even experienced socialism. They destroyed those statues because they hated The Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Living in a system designed for a short temporary economic boom for decades is no fun.

[–] CHINESEBOTTROLL@lemm.ee 28 points 1 year ago (6 children)

countries in which the Dictatorship of the Proletariat failed to cede power to the working class and establish a socialist economic structure

Oh, so like every single other place that tried to implement that deranged system? Thank you for this very important distinction.

[–] TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world 39 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's so very capitalist to look at failed attempts to escape capitalism which were sabotaged by capitalists as indication that the need to rebel is the problem.

[–] gxgx55@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Failing to account for greed for power some people have is in itself a fatal flaw, to be honest. Anyone who advocates for the exact same actions and glorifies the USSR knows what they are doing, they're hoping to come out on top after their desired revolution. Unfortunately, there are plenty of those kinds of people on this platform...

[–] TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Are Leftists advocating for the exact same actions as the USSR, or are Capitalists gaslighting the ignorant into believing they are?

[–] gxgx55@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, I'm just saying tankie infestations are so widespread and loud that they have a decent amount of leverage on what the average person thinks of communism, and tankie opposing leftists are either not loud enough, or not numerous enough.

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[–] phobiac@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (7 children)

Out of curiosity, how do you think governments in large capitalist economies (such as the US) properly account for greed for power and keep it in check? Do you think they are doing a good job on that front?

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[–] CHINESEBOTTROLL@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

failed attempts

They didn't fail. I mean you can criticize the ussr, but it was not capitalist

which were sabotaged by capitalists

What a weird thing to say. The USSR had sovereign control over the largest country in the world by far + a lot of allies. The capitalists can't even get rid of north Korea. Its not the capitalists, the system is just shit

the need to rebel is the problem

I mean its fine to rebel, but if your goal is communism I will bet on another case of "tHatS nOT rEaL coMMUnIsM"

[–] TrismegistusMx@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago (15 children)

Communism doesn't include a hierarchy of power enforced by violence. The two concepts are antithetical. The USSR was somewhere between capitalism and fascism.

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[–] Gxost@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

So-called "dictatorship of proletariat" was simply a terror. Lots of philosophers and religious elite was killed just because they weren't compatible with communist ideology. Rich peasants who didn't even use others labor were either robbed or killed. Peasants lost their land and had to work for the country. People got killed just because some anonyms told they did something bad. I know this because it happened to my ancestors. My grand-grandfather lost his house, communists left only one room for his family. His friends, all good people, dissapeared. His daughters never played with neighbor's kids because of fear. My other grand-grandfather lost land and two horses. His brother was killed for not agreeing to give away his house. And my another grand-grandfather was killed because an anonymous letter. He was communist and thought he was safe as he did nothing wrong. His kids couldn't get education because they were "children of the enemy of the people". Much later my grandfather got a paper concluding that execution of his father was a mistake. It was horrible time, and lots of people thought the ones who were killed were "pests" or "enemies of the people", so killing them was good and beneficial for the society.

[–] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works 84 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Lenin himself wasn't the problem and the Statures for him are usually for being a Revolutionary and removing the Tzar.

Stalin was the actual problem.

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lenin was a counterrevolutionary that brutally suppressed any dissent and directly placed Stalin (being well aware of what a person he was) in a position that would make his later takeover possible.

[–] CookieJarObserver@sh.itjust.works 44 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lenin did not place Stalin, stalin took over. Other than that, yes.

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 33 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Lenin placed Stalin as an enforcer to do the dirty stuff for him. It would be very naive to assume Lenin didn't know the risk involved of putting a former mob gangster in such a position.

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[–] TimeSquirrel@kbin.social 42 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Technically, none of these countries experienced "communism". They experienced tankie-led hell holes. Never trust a tankie. They'll ally with you to fight for "the people" and then stab you in the back when they get a taste of power and don't need you anymore.

[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 38 points 1 year ago (3 children)

None of the lower countries had communism.

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 35 points 1 year ago

Technically correct. They were under Stalins Marxism-Leninism, which was supposed to be a placeholder until true communism could be implemented.

But it's a bit disingenuous to split that hair in this thread. The irony being that the latter are all countries that got to experience the kind of gouvernemental structure that Lenin facilitated.

[–] BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You can argue if they had sunshine scenario communism all day, but they certainly was under the oppressive thumb of USSR.

[–] SpiderShoeCult@sopuli.xyz 25 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Do not feed the troll. Strange fellas, lying on the internet, arbitrarily defining communism to suit their rose-colored ideology is no basis for a system of debate.

True debate stems from a knowledge of history, past events and conditions that led to them, not some farcical comment (as the one you are replying to).

If I went around in communist times claiming I knew what Marxism-Leninism was just because I read a manifesto, they'd send the secret police after me.

[–] BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago

You are right, I just couldn't help it the bait was too great.

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[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 17 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I didn't say anything about communism being good or bad there, just that none of those countries ever lived under communism.

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[–] PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (3 children)

True Communism is impossible to sustain in the real world. it requires someone unimpeachable at its head. It affords too much power and no accountability to those in charge. Even if it were to start out well, sooner or later corruption would seep in. Communism is impossible while human greed exists

[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

There would be no one "in charge". Communism and anarchy go hand in hand.

human greed

This is the lie that we have been fed all of our lives under capitalism. It's so ingrained in us that some of us can't even imagine a world of helping each other thrive instead of exploiting each other.

[–] PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And yet, whenever communism is tried, a tyrant rises to the top.

[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

...which means that it isn't communism. Come on, try to keep up.

[–] PrettyFlyForAFatGuy@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Exactly, Which brings us back to my initial point... True communism is impossible... try to keep up...

[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago

You didn't say true communism is impossible, you said true communism is impossible to sustain. Why are you moving the goalpost instead of just taking the L? Lol

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[–] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 19 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Capitalism is impossible to sustain in the real world. It's literally killing the planet which will result in the extinction of the human race.

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[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 35 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yup, countries run by fascists hate communism.

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Russia seems fine with it though

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

So are we discussing countries were fascists live in or run by fascists? Because Russia is 100% the latter

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You used so many words to tell us you don't know what fascism is. Another victim of western education system.

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

More like, another victim of living next to Russia

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Plenty of people live next to Russia just fine last I checked.

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (3 children)
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[–] Noughmad@programming.dev 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

France never experienced communism?

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[–] CthulhuOnIce@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

People in the comments with a completely fictionalized idea of Lenin as some kind of libertarian hippie who hated Stalin's "authoritarianism" vs people in the comments with a completely fictionalized idea of Lenin as a "counterrevolutionary" (lol) or despot

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[–] neuracnu@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The photo of the USA Lenin statue isn't accurate. It resides in the Fremont neighborhood in Seattle, where it frequently has its hands and body splashed with red paint to represent the blood on Lenin's hands.

Just do an image search for it or check it out on google maps streetview.

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[–] zbych@szmer.info 11 points 1 year ago

This statue in Poland was few weeks long artist performance made few years ago near place, where Lenin's statue standed in Nowa Huta until 1989.

[–] OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hmm, why do these fascist anti-communist regimes that the US propped up hate Lenin?

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