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No, Putin. An attack on Belarus is only an attack on Belarus. Someone would have to attack Russia for it to be an attack on Russia. Look at a fucking map.
(Yes, I’m being obtuse, but giving this asshole a hard time makes me smile. Cut me some slack.)
I'm not up to snuff on NATO regulations. As I understand it, if a NATO nation gets attacked, the rest of them are obliged to defend, correct? What happens if that nation is "the aggressor". Like in this situation if Poland were to do a first strike against Belarus or Russia and they respond attacking Poland, is the rest of NATO obliged to help defend Poland?
As long as an attack happens on NATO territory, it's considered an act of war. Even if the NATO country is the aggressor. Ideally the aggressing country would be suspended before they could invoke article 5.
Imagine how dangerous it would be if NATO was, instead of a defensive pact, a transnational nuclear military helmed by the world's foremost genocidal empire that marches across Europe via propaganda and coup d'etats towards it's ultimate goal of encircling Russia and China. What a cluster fuck that would be? In that reality, if a member state launched a war of aggression NATO would probably support it and continue escalation.
Luckily, we know NATO is a defensive force because it didn't launch multiple wars of aggression, drop depleted uranium on civilians, and is democratically accountable.
Respect the thin blue line! Team NATO: World Police!
ITT: "But sometimes, dicks fuck assholes!"
Oh lemmygrad is leaking.
Oh reddit is leaking
Yes, it is, badly.
BTW: since lemmy (and obviously lemmygrad) was created by communists. Can you explain to me what's so communist about Russia that you and others are so fiercely defending? How are they different from that "imperialistic pig" that is the US? Is it because Russia is fascist now?
Looks to me like you never cared about communist ideology, and it was always about supporting Muscovies and totalitarism.
Nobody said Russia is communist, nor is anybody defending Russia here. People are just explaining to you that the reality is more complex than the propaganda narrative you've guzzled makes it out to be. The only fascists here are the ones who think that people of Ukraine should be used in a proxy war against Russia by the west. So, maybe stop projecting there.
Said the guy with a thumbnail with big CCCP on his forehead.
Standard bullshit pretending that you care about people, dismissing that Ukrainians are fighting for their right to exist. After the war crimes committed, after Bucha and many other places, after Russia admitted to kidnapping nearly a million of Ukrainian children (textbook definition of genocide), after ICC charges for war crimes.
But ok, please outline exactly what should be the peace agreement, who gets what (don't skip any details).
And second, please tell me how Russia, will honor that agreement, when it broke every single one going back to 90s, including Budapest Memorandum where it signed that it will respect Ukraine's borders. The one that it broke in 2003, 2014, 2018 and 2022 (when it decided to go after the rest of Ukraine).
@takeda @yogthos I understand where you're coming from Takeda. But don't expect rationality from Yogi. He says Ukraine is being "used in a proxy war". That's your first hint that he's a propagandist. Anyone who says the US is helping Ukraine to hurt Russia without mentioning that the ONLY reason the US needs to do so is because Russia has needlessly and baselessly attacked Ukraine, is not trying to speak the truth. Unless Yogi here wants to admit Russia's attack was the cause? Yogi?
Believing what you wrote takes a brain as smooth as a bowling ball. RAND literally put out a whole study called extending Russia where it outlines a proxy war in Ukraine. US ambassador to Finland openly called it a proxy war, Lindsey Graham said it's the best money US ever spent on killing Russians. Meanwhile, imagine claiming with a straight face that US is helping Ukraine, what an utter monster one has to be to call this help. You are a deplorable piece of human garbage.
The fact that you made a personal attack followed by a bunch of drivel there that has nothing to do with anything I said is really in character fro you.
What personal attack? Are you saying your thumbnail is offensive to you?
You don't answer these questions, because you don't have a good answer that doesn't show that you are supporting the genocide being committed by Russia.
My thumbnail isn't offensive to me, but a reddit troll talking about it in pejorative fashion is. And your "questions" have nothing to do with anything I said here. However, last I checked it was Ukraine committing ethnic cleansing in Donbas as CNN reported back in 2014. Also, Russia should be held to the same standard western "democracies" are held to. The ones that invaded Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Afghanistan. In fact, US currently occupies a greater percentage of Syria than Russia is occupying of Ukraine while stealing food and oil from the people of Syria. Western war on terror has massacred over 6 million people, and nobody holds a candle to US when it comes to killing civilians. In fact, UK is currently torturing a journalist who exposed US war crimes in Iraq.
But I guess Russia's invasion of Ukraine is different from all that because people in Ukraine have blond hair and blue eyes, so a bunch western racists started caring about wars all of a sudden. You have no moral high ground when your own country commits far worse atrocities than what Russia is doing.
Stop changing the topics and answer that simple question. You are all about peace, so tell me:
You must have something in mind, or are you saying that you have no idea what you're talking about?
Again you didn't address a single point and diverted everything with pseudo arguments.
did you forgot to switch the accounts?
I'm not changing any topics. I'm pointing out the how utterly morally bankrupt your position is. The reality of the situation is that it was possible to avoid the war, and all Ukraine had to do to achieve that was to stay neutral. Ukraine joining NATO was a red line for Russia, and this is something that was well known both in Ukraine and in the west. Countless western experts have been warning about this for many decades. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here's what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:
50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:
George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.
Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"
Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.
The reality is that it's Ukraine that refused to implement Minsk while attacking civilian population in Donbas as CNN reported at the time. Now, western and Ukrainian leaders have actually admitted on record that they never planned to implement Minsk and it was a play for time.
You must have something in mind, or are you saying that you have no idea what you’re talking about?
I'm saying that it's either you who has no idea what you're talking about or you're just an outright liar. Either way it's a pretty bad look. War happened because of people like you, and now hundreds of thousands of people have died, millions have had their lives ruined, and Ukraine will lose a huge chunk of its territory in the best case scenario. All of this happened because the west and Ukraine refused to negotiate.
This night for the first time Polish regular soldiers fired on our territory. Since 5:45 a.m. we have been returning the fire, and from now on bombs will be met by bombs.
Liberal citing Hitler. Checks out.
Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.
As far as I remember history tells us that liberal governments turned fascists.
Nazi party was as socialist as North Korea is democratic
I don't know where you get the idea from that I've said the Nazis were socialists, and I don't know where you get the idea that social democracies, a.k.a. liberal democracies, a.k.a. dictatorship of the bourgeoisie are socialists. Again, as far as I remember, history tells us that the bourgeois governments are the ones who turn fascist. History repeats itself: Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism.
Cool. Poland ain’t gonna start shit.
Any attack on Poland will trigger Article 5.
Poland won't, but according to Hitler in September 1st, 1939, Nazi Germany was defending itself from Polish attacks.
I think putin is thinking of forcing Belarus with Wagner to attack Poland and see how NATO will react when the threat would be war with Russia (if NATO will respond, which I hope it will, I think Belarus will get the same help as Armenia).
Whcih I hope it will.
Less bloodthirsty person from the imperial core.
Poland is a major supply hub and has lost plenty of boots on the ground. Art 5 isn't automatic. US won't risk nuking for expendables. All Europe is expendable.
Europe has nukes, and an industrial capacity that dwarfs Russia multiple times over and is roughly equal to the US.
Russia has about as much chance attacking Europe as Japan would attacking China on their own.
Also without Europe, the US has no capacity to develop semiconductors better than what Russia has. In the extremely unlikely event Europe falls to Russia, the US will not be far behind.
Russia has no interest in attacking Europe. US/NATO is the executive arm of longterm geopolitical interests that strive for total global dominance. They utilize sophisticated multipronged longterm strategies attempting to bring the rest of the planet under their control. Russia is a small part of that parcel.
The ultima ratio regum part of it considers some geographies more expendable than others. Egress of core industries from the EU is deliberate part of the strategy. Vassals are ruled by compradors, so populations are captive. It's direct oligarch control on the other side, so it's simpler.
MAD still applies. Both sides go to great lengths to avoid it, since the outcome is deterministic and global. Which is why the US would be a second target, if not already part of first strategic strike.
Wars are confusing places, so potential for fatal mistakes is exponentiated.
Russia has no interest in attacking Europe
Where have you been the last few years?
If you think you understand the conflict, you are not understanding the conflict. I have spent decades and lately far too much time on sources inaccessible to most, and I still feel underinformed.
I noticed I commented on world news. My mistake. Lemmy keeps dropping the subscribed filter.
Putin's standup act is very funny. He should quit his day job & take it up fulltime.
Idk, last guy who laughed at him had his country invaded.
Putin's been invading Ukraine since 2014. His 3-day special operation is going on for 514 days, had him running from a mutiny (I need a ride,not ammo!), has killed 241,330 Russians, has the Kerch bridge opening and closing like a fucking accordion, and is a global criminal. And all against a country with no nukes, no navy, barely an airforce, a tenth of Russia's defense budget, and 28 times smaller than Russia.
He's losing so badly, the whole world's laughing at him.
As I said earlier, Putin's standup act is very funny.
Is it only me or does Putin look really bad in this photo? I mean he seems unhealthy and in addition to that he looks like he aged 10 years in just 2. Amazing speedrun.
Cool, now do Biden.
edit: I see I hit a nerve 😂