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There needs to be trust in the justice system. Otherwise, there's no point in having a justice system. If he's cleared, then there wasn't enough evidence and he should be considered innocent. That's how our justice system works. Don't break the social contract because of your vendetta against rich people.
The problem is that our society doesn't encourage people to immediately report crimes nor provide sufficient support for people who have been abused.
Yeah, more apologetics from someone who doesn't get that our system is clearly failing us and we want, no DEMAND something new and different.
A new justice system? Might as well overthrow the government and start over then, because the common law system is literally the foundation of society.
That's exactly what we want, yes. And we'll end up getting it too, with climate collapse, so trying to intimidate me into submitting to a system that is inherently biased and abusive and has done nothing but hurt myself and everyone I know and love personally will get you nowhere.
I will NOT change my mind on this and you can't make me.
WE will not change our minds on this and you can't make us.
We can and will make something better and there's nothing you can do to stop us.
Nothing.
Do you think OJ Simpson is innocent? Would you want your daughter or sister to marry him?
The are different standards for a reason. Society is perfectly capable of being aware that someone is a giant dickbag without there being enough evidence to justify using the power of the state to remove their freedom and incarcerate them. Those are two extraordinarily different things and you know it.
To suggest otherwise is to imply that the government is a perfect arbiter of dispute that we should all just blindly accept. Something tells me you wouldn't be so keen on that stance when it worked against your interests
I think we need to recognise the moral panic of the situation too. People are out there looking to cancel others, others are out to use the moment for financial gain, and then there is the legitimate ones too. We dont know which they are and for the most part, the judicial system is only OK at separating them.
If you can smear someone and that's it their life is over, no matter the truth of it, then what justice is that?
What's the truth here.. not very many people know, clearly.
WOW the number of people in this thread immediately jumping to the accusers being "false" and deserving jail. Because no actual sexual predator ever got away with it in court...
(Sex crimes are extraordinarily difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt because the actions are taken in private without a lot of physical evidence. Which sexual predators rely on to get away with their crimes, by the way.)
Perhaps we should review the sheer volume of young men from all over the US & UK reporting that Spacey was at best inappropriate with them. One of the youngest being 14 years old:
https://people.com/tv/kevin-spacey-controversy-timeline/
And just in case some of us need a refresher course, the rate of false rape accusations is low:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21164210/
And the rate of sexual assault is high:
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/fastfact.html
Indeed. In a thread a couple of days back on a different (though related) subject I was accused of being a rape apologist because I was insistent on the presumption of innocence and the beyond-reasonable-doubt standards that need to be overcome when accusations like this are slung. But it works the same in the other direction too - we can't assume that an accuser is guilty of fraud or libel or filing false reports or whatever just because they failed to prove their case.
It would not be good for justice if these situations ended up being "now that the accusation has been made someone is going to go to jail, either the accused or the accuser." The Thunderdome is not a good model to emulate.
Yeah this whole thing isn't simple. Even if he's cleared of charges, these allegations are old and that makes them hard to prove or disprove.
Further, the quantity is concerning. Maybe he's just prolifically sexual but my gut can't really get passed how many accusations there are over such a long span of time. Even if innocent, still creepy is my opinion.
In general, any multimillionaire that gets off of a serious charge doesn't mean they're innocent.
It just another example of having ridiculous amounts of money in our legal system means it's really hard to be hel accountable.
Hell, trump got off of beating and raping his wife, because of an old ass New York law that said a husband can't rape his wife under any circumstance.
In general, any multimillionaire that gets off of a serious charge doesn’t mean they’re innocent.
Don't forget the flip-side of that - the prisons are full of poor people who do not deserve to be there. It's almost as if the system was designed to be like this...
Yet suggest Pee-wee Herman is creepy and you get downvoted. Even though without question he was caught with illegal material.
From his wiki:
On October 29, 2017, actor Anthony Rapp alleged that Spacey, while appearing intoxicated, made a sexual advance toward him at a party in 1986, when Rapp was 14 and Spacey was 26.[118][119] Rapp had also shared this story in a 2001 interview with The Advocate, but Spacey's name was redacted from publication to avoid legal disputes and public outing.[120] Spacey stated through Twitter that he did not remember the encounter, but that he owed Rapp "the sincerest apology for what would have been deeply inappropriate drunken behavior" if he had behaved as asserted.[121][122] On September 9, 2020, Rapp sued Spacey for sexual assault, sexual battery, and intentional infliction of emotional distress under the Child Victims Act.[123]
Fifteen others then came forward alleging similar abuse,[124] including Boston anchorwoman Heather Unruh, who alleged that Spacey sexually assaulted her son;[125][126] filmmaker Tony Montana; actor Roberto Cavazos;[127] Richard Dreyfuss's son Harry;[128] and eight people who worked on House of Cards.[129] The Guardian was contacted by "a number of people" who alleged that Spacey "groped and behaved in an inappropriate way with young men" as artistic director of the Old Vic.[130][131][132]
Spacey also appears on flight logs from Jeffrey Epstein's private jet from the early 2000s.[133]
Coming Out Controversy On the same day as Rapp's allegations against him, Spacey came out as gay when apologizing to Rapp. He said, "I have had relationships with both men and women. I have loved and had romantic encounters with men throughout my life, and I choose now to live as a gay man."[134][135] His decision to come out via his statement was criticized by gay celebrities, including Billy Eichner, George Takei, Lance Bass, and Wanda Sykes, as an attempt to change the subject and shift focus from Rapp's accusation, for using his own drunkenness as an excuse for making a sexual advance on a minor, and for implying a connection between homosexuality and child sexual abuse.[136][137][138]
Some readers additionally felt that by claiming he was "horrified" by Rapp's story, Spacey was attempting to paint himself as the victim of the alleged abuse.[139] In October 2022, Spacey expressed regret over the way he came out and said that it was "never [his] intention" to deflect from the allegations against him or conflate them with his sexual orientation.[140][141]
Reaction and ramifications Amid the allegations, filming was suspended on the sixth and final season of House of Cards. The show's production company had implemented "an anonymous complaint hotline, crisis counselors, and sexual harassment legal advisors for the crew", and stated that in 2012, "someone on the crew shared a complaint about a specific remark and gesture made by Kevin Spacey. Immediate action was taken following our review of the situation and we are confident the issue was resolved promptly to the satisfaction of all involved."[142] According to the production company, Spacey "willingly participated in a training process and since that time MRC has not been made aware of any other complaints" involving him.[143] The show had been due to end in 2018.[125] The season was shortened from 13 episodes to eight, and Spacey was removed from the cast and from his role as executive producer.[144]
The Gore Vidal biographical film Gore, starring Spacey, which was set to be distributed by Netflix, was canceled,[145][146] and Netflix went on to sever all ties with him.[147] He was due to appear in All the Money in the World as industrialist J. Paul Getty; his scenes were cut and Christopher Plummer replaced him as Getty in reshoots.[67] In an interview with Variety, Plummer said, "It's really not replacing [Spacey]. It's starting all over again." Plummer elaborated saying, "I think it's very sad what happened to him... Kevin is such a talented and a terrifically gifted actor, and it's so sad. It's such a shame. That's all I can say, because that's it."[148]
The International Academy of Television Arts and Sciences reversed its decision to honor Spacey with the 2017 International Emmy Founders Award.[149] On November 2, 2017, Variety reported that his publicist Staci Wolfe and talent agency Creative Artists Agency were ending their relationships with him.
Legal issues The Los Angeles District Attorney's office stated in April 2018 that it would investigate an allegation that Spacey had sexually assaulted an adult male in 1992.[158][159] In July 2018, three more allegations of sexual assault against Spacey were revealed by Scotland Yard, bringing the total number of open investigations in the UK to six.[160] In September 2018, a lawsuit filed at Los Angeles Superior Court claimed that Spacey sexually assaulted an unnamed masseur at a house in Malibu, California, in October 2016.[161]
In December 2018, Spacey was charged with a felony for allegedly sexually assaulting journalist Heather Unruh's 18-year-old son in Nantucket, Massachusetts, in July 2016.[162] Spacey pleaded not guilty to the charge on January 7, 2019.[163][164] Unruh's son told police he was texting with his girlfriend throughout the alleged "groping" incident. Spacey's defense attorneys spent months trying to obtain copies of the texts and the phone itself. In mid-May 2019, Unruh's son's personal attorney informed the court that the cell phone in question is "missing".[165] On June 4, 2019, the defense learned that when Unruh gave her son's cell phone to police in 2017, she admitted she had deleted some of the text messages.[165] Later that month, her son filed a lawsuit against Spacey, claiming emotional damages. On July 5, 2019, he voluntarily dismissed the claims with prejudice.[166]
On July 17, 2019, the criminal assault charge against Spacey was dropped by the Cape and Islands prosecutors.[167] When the anonymous massage therapist who accused him died, the last remaining criminal case against Spacey was closed.[168]
On September 9, 2020, Anthony Rapp accused Spacey in a complaint about actions that allegedly happened in 1986 (sexual assault and sexual battery) and intentional infliction of emotional distress under the Child Victims Act, which extended New York's statute of limitations for suits related to child sexual abuse.[123] Joining Rapp in the suit against Spacey was a man who requested to remain anonymous who accused Spacey of sexually abusing him in 1983, when he was 14 and Spacey was 24.[169][170] On June 17, 2021, the anonymous accuser was dismissed from the case due to his refusal to publicly identify himself.[171] As Rapp's trial lawsuit against Spacey commenced in October 2022, it was revealed that he had given an inaccurate description of the apartment where he alleged the abuse took place.[172][173] On October 17, the judge dismissed the emotional distress charges due to them being a "duplicate" of the battery charges.[14] On October 20, a jury found Spacey not liable.[174][175]
In 2020, Spacey and his production companies M. Profitt Productions and Trigger Street Productions were ordered to pay $31 million to MRC, the studio that produced House of Cards, for violating its sexual harassment policy.[176] Spacey appealed to have the arbitration award overturned, but the request was denied on August 4, 2022.[177]
On May 26, 2022, Spacey was charged by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) in the United Kingdom with four counts of sexual assault against three complainants. The alleged offenses occurred between 2005 and 2013 in London and Gloucestershire.[178][179] According to the Crown Prosecution Service, it would only be possible to formally charge Spacey if he entered England or Wales. If Spacey refused to do so voluntarily an extradition process would have been necessary.[180] Nevertheless, in a statement to Good Morning America on May 31, 2022, Spacey said that he would "voluntarily appear in the U.K. as soon as can be arranged".[181]
In his first British court appearance on June 16, Spacey denied the allegations against him.[182] On July 14, 2022, Spacey pleaded not guilty to the charges in London. [183][184] On November 16, 2022, the CPS authorized an additional seven charges against Spacey, all related to a single complainant arising from incidents alleged to have occurred between 2001 and 2004.[185][186] Three charges were dismissed before or during the trial which began on June 28, 2023, and on July 26, 2023, a jury found Spacey not guilty of the remaining nine charges.
Frankly I wish more court details were in the articles about this. There are a lot of accusers and info on the wiki, I can't help but feel if he was accused of assaulting women this would have gone differently
Yeah, we need to see more details. The allegations against him were serious. This was a spot copy so is understandably sparse on details. I guess we will see more in depth stories being published by tomorrow.
I just want to know if I can start enjoying The Usual Suspects again :’(
Can I go ahead and finish the house of cards yet?
I don't think this changes thing. Not for me at least. He's had at least a dozen other people accuse him - including people that don't need his money or notoriety. And while he was cleared of criminal wrong doing in the Anthony Rapp case, I don't think he ever denied making an advance on a 14 year old boy. Just that he "didn't remember it" - which hardly matters. I don't care how drunk I get. I'm not accidentally going to hit on children.
37 years ago he may have made a mistake, with no proof other than hearsay..
What kind of proof do you think typically exists when a crime is committed and the only individuals present are the alleged victim and perpetrator?
That's kind of the point. We live in a system that is supposed to be "innocent until proven guilty". Not because people who commit crimes should get away with them, but because the opposite system would be completely untenable. How exactly is he supposed to prove that he is innocent? I don't care how sure anyone is that he did it. Prove it, or by our legal standard, he must be considered innocent.
If you want to live in a society where accusation is tantamount to fact, you're going to regret it as soon as anyone says anything about you.
Your conflating the legal system with greater society. He's not in jail or paying a settlement because there wasn't enough evidence to convict him in court. The rest of society is not bound by these same restrictions and are free to pass judgment as they please.
I wouldn't say accusations are tantamount to fact, but when you get dozens of people making the same accusation, about a crime that's difficult to prosecute and convict because of the nature of the crime, it's hard to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Are you not also passing judgement on the accusers here? You're essentially calling them all liars who are guilty of making false reports. Both sides can't be "innocent" here.
They were responding to a comment about the legal system and problems with prosecuting SA cases, so of course they are going to be discussing that over the wider social implications.
I don't know why you are jumping to conclusions here. The point they made about the legal system is extremely valid. As a survivor of CSA myself it's something I confront in my mind every single day, but they are right: the opposite method would be horrific.
I mean these types of comments come from the same crowd that chants "eat the rich" at every opportunity, without considering that, for the vast majority of the world, they are the rich and henceforth deserving of being "eaten"
Lol exactly, thank you for reminding me why I hate that phrase so much 🤣
I know it's incredibly difficult, but if you are ever sexually assaulted, it's crucial to report it as soon as possible.
Time erodes facts, witnesses, memory, and only hurts a victim's chance to seek justice. Prosecuting a sexual predator early also ensures that no one else can be victimized.
100% this. I wish I had... I'm only confronting it psychologically now, 20 years later, and I have to face the fact there's no chance of getting justice.
I don't know if it helps or not for me to point this out (I hope it's something that gives you some solace), but depending on the circumstances it's also very difficult to go through an investigation and trial. Maybe things are better now, but 20 or 30 years back it was an ordeal for the victim. The "what were you wearing?" mentality was very prevalent within the male-dominated judiciary and they made it so hard on the victims that they often felt like they were on trial - and in many cases they still didn't get justice either, despite their personal lives being dissected in front of a room full of strangers, some of whom were intent on falsely portraying them as promiscuous. After seeing this happen to a friend, I lost faith in the system to deliver justice. I don't have a solution, but an adversarial system just doesn't seem ideal for this kind of prosecution.
Damn, I feel like his name's been dragged through the mud these past few years. Not sure what the details of this whole thing are, but if the verdict is "Not Guilty" I guess that's that.
Legal is not the same as moral or ethical. While he did not do things that were bad enough to lock him in a room over, we as a society are still allowed to socially punish him.
Or he did do the things but they're hard to prove in the court of law.
If the accusations against him were really false, the accusers deserve to be in jail considering the amount of damage they did to his career and his reputation.
Assuming the UK has similar enough standards of evidence to the US, cleared of charges is not the same as a false accusation. There just might not have been sufficient evidence to convict him. On top of that, they would likely need some strong evidence to bring charges for a false accusation (which they might not have).
That is true.