this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2024
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[–] Vendul@lemmy.world 7 points 5 hours ago (11 children)

It’s kinda good but it completely destroyed the European manufacturing for solar

[–] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 7 points 5 hours ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) (5 children)

Yep the EU will be beholden to a dictatorial regime again. Instead of placating Putin for gas it will be Xi for solar panels and batteries.

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[–] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 9 points 11 hours ago

Theyre $1.25 per watt in south America right now (we have an energy crisis due to climate change caused drought)

[–] Shardikprime@lemmy.world 21 points 15 hours ago

Solar has always an extremely high ratio for megawatt per mass unit.

This price is really good

[–] JustEnoughDucks@feddit.nl 91 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (4 children)

Here in Belgium there used to be big government subsidies for solar panels 5-10 ago.

Now the same wattage battery + solar setup without any government subsidies is a good chunk cheaper than that time with the large subsidies.

Pretty cool and shows the power of government renewables subsidies. A huge percentage of houses in Belgium have solar panels now.(and electricity still costs 0.30€/kWh average because of fossil fuel energy lobbies)

Now that there is a local industry around it, most renovations and almost all new builds include them.

electricity still costs 0.30€/kWh average because of fossil fuel energy lobbies.

This is the price of guaranteed electricity delivered to your doorstep. We can't get rid of gas fired power stations and kms of electricity grid network yet.

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 9 points 6 hours ago (2 children)

As your northern neighbors. We did subsidize it too, but now the privatized energy companies started whining that there wasn't enough capacity, so now they charge you for creating free energy

[–] iknowitwheniseeit@lemmynsfw.com 6 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Yes I'm considering buying a high power laser so I can send the energy back into space instead of paying the power companies for the privilege of giving them electricity.

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 5 points 4 hours ago

Great idea! Some inspiration right here :

https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/

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[–] sirboozebum@lemmy.world 20 points 17 hours ago

4 million households in Australia have solar panels.

They are great value.

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 3 points 11 hours ago (2 children)

I'm fairly sure that all newly built houses in the UK require solar by law.

[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 6 points 5 hours ago

All the new houses around here with no solar would indicate that is not true. They're not even required to have a south facing roof.

[–] bobs_monkey@lemm.ee 4 points 10 hours ago (1 children)
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[–] Valmond@lemmy.world 20 points 18 hours ago (2 children)

Just have to buy 1100 panels 😋 but then the price is 0.055€/watt ...

I Want one, but only one or a couple, to put on my balcony...

[–] frezik@midwest.social 1 points 3 hours ago (2 children)

Thousands of people buying rooftop panels was never going to be the best way towards a Water/Wind/Solar (WWS) future. Fitting panels to the roof has to work around the roof geometry and obstructions like vents. That makes every job a custom job. It also means thousands of small inverters rather than a few big ones.

Compare that to setting up thousands of panels on racks in a field. As long as it's relatively open and flat, you just slap those babies down. You haul in a few big inverters which are often built right into shipping containers that can just be placed on site, hooked up, and left there. Batteries need inverters, too, so if your project includes some storage, then you only need one set of inverters.

I get the feeling of independence from the system that solar panels on the roof gives people, but it's just not economically the best way to go. The insanely cheap dollars per MWh of solar is only seen when deploying them on a mass scale. That means roofs of commercial/industrial buildings or bigger.

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[–] ikidd@lemmy.world 15 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

These are topcon modules only. Considering a 400W panel will have about 72 modules in it, that's only about 15 panels worth. Of course, then you have to actually build the panel and connect the modules, put it behind glass inside a frame, then put in a bypass diode and leads for connection. So an actual panel ends up being about 5-10X the cost of the modules per W.

[–] solrize@lemmy.world 4 points 15 hours ago (2 children)

You can pay a lot less than 10x for completed panels. https://store.santansolar.com/ amazed me.

[–] desktop_user@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 14 hours ago (2 children)

does the link not work in 'murica?

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[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 30 points 20 hours ago (27 children)

$60k per MW or $210M for a nuclear reactors worth (3.5GW). Sure... the reactor will go 24/7 (between maintenance and refuelling down times, and will use less land (1.75km² Vs ~40km²) but at 1% of the cost, why are we still talking about nuclear.

(I'm using the UKs Hinckley Point C power station as reference)

[–] pastermil@sh.itjust.works 7 points 13 hours ago (7 children)

but at 1% of the cost, why are we still talking about nuclear

Sure... the reactor will go 24/7 (between maintenance and refuelling down times, and will use less land

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[–] DogWater@lemmy.world 2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (4 children)

Because grid level power delivery is about FAR more than just raw wattage numbers. Momentum of spinning turbines is extremely important to the grid. The grid relies on generation equipment maintaing an AC frequency of 60 hz or 50hz or whatever a country decides on. Changing loads throughout the day literally add an amount of drag to the entire grid and it can drag the frequency down. The inverse can also happen. If you have fluctuating wind or cloud cover you can bring the whole grid down if you can't instantly spin up other methods to pick up the slack.

reliable consistent power delivery is absolutely critical when it comes to running the grid effectively and that is something that solar and wind are bad at

Ideally we will be able to use those technologies to fill grid level storage (batteries, pumped hydro) to supply 100% of our energy needs in the not too distant future but until then we desperately need large, consistent, clean power generation.

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[–] Benaaasaaas@lemmy.world 13 points 19 hours ago (4 children)

Because there are nights there are winters there are cloudy and rainy days, and there are no batteries capable of balancing all of these issues. Also when you account for those batteries the cost is going to shift a bit. So we need to invest in nuclear and renewables and batteries. So we can start getting rid of coal and gas plants.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 1 points 3 hours ago

The batteries needed are a lot less than you might think. Solar doesn't work at night and the wind doesn't always blow, but we have tons of regional weather data about how they overlap. From that, it's possible to calculate the maximum historical lull where neither are providing enough. You then add enough storage to handle double that time period, and you're good.

Getting 95% coverage with this is a very achievable goal. That last 5% takes a lot more effort, but getting to 95% would be a massive reduction in CO2 output.

[–] GissaMittJobb@lemmy.ml 21 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago) (3 children)

Also when you account for those batteries the cost is going to shift a bit.

You better be bringing units if you're going to be claiming this.

Still less than half of the LCOE of nuclear when storage is added: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1475611/global-levelized-cost-of-energy-components-by-technology/

Given that both solar and storage costs are trending downwards while nuclear is not, this basically kills any argument for nuclear in the future. It's not viable on its face - renewables + storage is the definitive future.

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[–] suzune@ani.social 24 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

But Germany has no space for nuclear waste. They haven't been able to bury the last batch for over 30 years. And the one that they buried most recently began to leak radioactivity into ground water.

And.. why give Russia more military target opportunities?

[–] elucubra@sopuli.xyz 11 points 18 hours ago (3 children)

I'm not a rabid anti-nuclear, but there are somethings that are often left out of the pricing. One is the exorbitant price of storage of spent fuel although I seem to remember that there is some nuclear tech that can use nuclear waste as at least part of it's fuel (Molten salt? Pebble? maybe an expert can chime in). There is also the human greed factor. Fukushima happened because they built the walls to the highest recorded tsunami in the area, to save on concrete. A lot of civil engineering projects have a 150% overprovision over the worst case calculations. Fukushima? just for the worst case recorded, moronic corporate greed. The human factor tends to be the biggest danger here.

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[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 8 points 18 hours ago (8 children)

If France can find space, surely Germany can.

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[–] wewbull@feddit.uk 13 points 17 hours ago

You're using factors of less than 10 to argue against a factor of 100.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 14 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (2 children)

I think there's a contingent of people who think nuclear is really, really cool. And it is cool. Splitting atoms to make power is undeniably awesome. That doesn't make it sensible, though, and they don't separate those two thoughts in their mind. Their solution is to double down on talking points designed for use against Greenpeace in the 90s rather than absorbing new information that changes the landscape.

And then there's a second group that isn't even trying to argue in good faith. They "support" nuclear knowing it won't go anywhere because it keeps fossil fuels in place.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 7 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

What isn't sensible about nuclear? For context, I'm coming from the US in an area with lots of empty space (i.e. tons of place to store radioactive waste) and without much in the way of hydro (I'm in Utah, a mountainous, desert climate). We get plenty of sun as well as plenty of snow. Nuclear should provide power at night and throughout the winter, and since ~89% of homes are heated with natural gas, we only need higher electricity production in the summer when it's hot, which is precisely what solar is great for.

So here's my thought process:

  • nuclear for base load demand to cover nighttime power needs, as well as the small percentage of homes using electricity for heat
  • solar for summer spikes in energy usage for cooling
  • batteries for any excess solar/nuclear generation

If we had a nuclear plant in my area, we could replace our coal plants, as well as some of our natural gas plants. If we go with solar, I don't think we have great options for electricity storage throughout the winter.

This is obviously different in the EU, but surely the nordic countries have similar problems as we do here, so why isn't nuclear more prevalent there?

[–] itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 15 hours ago (4 children)

Because it makes no sense, environmentally or economically speaking. Nuclear is, as you said, base load. It can't adjust for spikes in demand. So if there's more energy in the grid than needed, it's gonna be solar and wind that gets turned off to balance the grid. Investments in nuclear thus slow down the adoption of renewables.

Solar is orders of magnitude cheaper to build, while nuclear is one of the most expensive ways to generate electricity, even discounting the waste storage, which gets delegated the the public.

Battery technology has been making massive gains in scalability and cost in recent years. What we need is battery arrays to cover nighttime demand and spikes in production or demand, combined with a more adaptive industry that performs energy intensive tasks when it's abundant. With countries that have large amounts of solar, it is already happening that during peak production, energy cost goes to zero (or even negative, as traded between utilities companies).

About the heating: gas can not stay the main way to heat homes, it's yet another fossil fuel. What we need is heat pumps, which can have an efficiency of >300% (1kWh electricity gets turned into 3kWh of heat, by taking ambient heat from outside). Combined with large, well-insulated warm-water reservoirs, you can heat up more water than you need to higher temperature during times of electricity oversupply, and have more than enough to last you the night, without even involving batteries. Warm water is an amazing energy storage medium. Batteries cover electricity demand as well as a backup in case you need uncharacteristically much water. This is a system that's slowly getting adopted in Europe, and it's great. Much cheaper, and 100% clean.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 2 points 3 hours ago (4 children)

We also should consider HVDC lines. The longest one right now is in Brazil, and it's 1300 miles long. With that kind of range, wind in Nebraska can power New York, solar in Arizona can power Chicago, and hydro all around the Mississippi river basin can store it all. We may have enough pumped hydro already that we might not even need batteries, provided we can hook it all up.

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[–] xthexder@l.sw0.com 10 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (1 children)

You bring up heated water as a method of storage, and it reminds me of a neighborhood in Alberta, Canada that uses geothermal + solar heated water storage for 52 homes. They've been able to successfully heat the entire neighborhood with only solar over the winter in 2015-2016 and have gotten > 90% solar heating in other years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_Landing_Solar_Community

There's a huge number of new storage technologies being developed, and the fact that some even work on a seasonal basis for long term storage is amazing.

[–] itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 14 hours ago

That's pretty cool! Still seems to have some issues, but as the technology matures, that seems like a promising technology. I didn't know seasonal warm water storage was a thing

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[–] Venicon@lemmy.world 26 points 21 hours ago (5 children)

Good news perhaps but I’m sure I won’t see any benefit in Scotland, still thousands to add solar panels.

[–] frezik@midwest.social 29 points 21 hours ago

Scotland has really good wind power, anyway. Between that, nuclear, and a few other renewable sources, you guys are down to 10% fossil fuel energy use. So don't worry about solar.

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