this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2024
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Fuck Cars

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167
Car crashes into group of cyclists in Armidale, leaving one dead and others injured (www.abc.net.au)
submitted 1 week ago by Zagorath@aussie.zone to c/fuckcars@lemmy.world
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[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 56 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Dashcam vision sought of anyone in the area.

"There's no blame. We really need to throw our arms around each other. We need to show what a strong community we are," [the Mayor] said.

The blame is the fact that cars are allowed on roads being used for a race at all. I've had the privilege of participating a few times in Brisbane's Tour de Brisbane, and also in some other events around SEQ. The closes roads of TdB are an absolute dream. The events on open roads are absolutely miserable if you're not good enough to keep up with a big pack.

We need to make it easier for these kinds of events to fully close the roads for them to be able to happen safely. The blame is firmly on our politicians and their constant obsession with never inconveniencing cars in any way, even to the expense of people's lives.

[–] Bluetreefrog@lemmy.world 40 points 1 week ago (1 children)

The whining on facebook about how cyclists should be banned whenever something like this happens does my head in. If you can't stop your car within sight distance, you are driving too fast. Doesn't matter if it's a cyclist or a tree across the road. Slow down!

[–] grue@lemmy.world 19 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

It's ridiculous that somebody downvoted you. I've seen it happen before when I've made similar arguments, and I'm getting pretty sick and tired of how infested this community is with car-supremacist fuckwads who support irresponsible driving.

[–] ForgottenUsername@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Not a carsupremacist fuckwad, however I think we should be using this as a lesson to prevent reoccurrence, clearly this is a narrow road, and narrow country roads are usually 100km/h zones, you can come around a corner and have no idea, theres a car, let alone a gaggle of bikes there (not to mention the riders that sometimes ride 3 abreast). Its a setup for disaster.

Whoever was organising the race should've organised an escort car to advise cyclists are ahead (I find this personally super helpful), else arranged a road closure. Changing every speed zone in this country to 50km/h will not stop this from occuring, and it is impractical to boot. Should the driver have slowed down of course, will the majority of drivers who have been driving through the country for the last hour and a half, on a relatively barron country road slow down? of course not.

Remeber our pollies are to busy focusing on re-election, so they'll do nothing to help us, so we've gotta do the steps ourselves.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 6 days ago

This sort of race can't have an escort car because it's not going to be a single peloton. It'll be a whole bunch of cyclists riding solo or in groups of 2–20+ spread out all across the course as they go at their own pace. From the article it seems like they did have signs up warning drivers about it.

You're right that mixing a cycling race with cars is a bad idea. The road really should have just been closed. Unfortunately the amount that would have cost (a cost that is entirely up to how much the government decides to make it cost) would almost certainly have been prohibitive and never would have been possible. It needs to be made much more affordable.

But that doesn't really change the underlying behavioural problems. Education is never a solution to road safety; that's something we know very well. But to some extent, we know that drivers in this country have a behaviour issue. They get very aggressive. And in part, this is because they know they can be. Better education, along with stronger enforcement of rules against aggressive road behaviours (making a public show of that enforcement so word spreads about it), both in rural and urban locations, could help shift people's behaviour.

[–] Bluetreefrog@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago (2 children)

If you can't stop in your sight distance, you are driving too fast. Doesn't matter what the maximum speed is. There's no excusing this.

[–] Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 1 week ago

Exactly!

So many people don't slow down when conditions say you should it's infuriating.

Just this last week my city was engulfed in fog for most of the days and it was like the end of the with the amount of cars and pileups riddling the roads.

[–] ForgottenUsername@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

So what practical measures do you suggest to stop this from happening again?

People aren't reading Lemmy as they are driving from Armidale to heed your warning. What I was doing was suggesting some practical steps to protect cyclists. So that if perhaps someone was thinking of doing an event like this they wouldn't be relying on motorists 'just slowing down' cos it's not gonna happen. And will likely result in another tragic accident.

I'm not excusing the behaviour as you claim, I'm saying we need to do more to protect cyclists, cos motorists won't 'just slow down' (even moreso on country roads such as this)

[–] Bluetreefrog@lemmy.world 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I wasn't saying you were excusing the behaviour. I was saying that many, including the media do.

So what practical measures do you suggest to stop this from happening again?

Every accident I have been to (and I've been to a lot), was either caused by driver impatience (driving faster than the conditions, drink driving, fiddling with phone, etc) or deliberate intent (suicide). The former is a driver education and training problem. We need to train young drivers to accept delays as OK. As a former motorcycle rider, I taught my kids the importance of patience and driving as if the rest of the world was out to kill you. Every driver should have to do (and pass) a defensive driving course. Also, too many bad habits are passed from parent to child, so every driver should have to spend a prescribed amount of time with registered driving instructors. In Germany, you cannot get your drivers licence without spending time with registered driving instructors, and if you fail your test it costs 400-500 euros to repeat, so there's a good incentive to learn the skills correctly the first time.

This was an organised event with signage etc.. There are many things that could be done, but better driver education to overcome the "bikes shouldn't be on roads" mentality would be a good start. Dedicated cycle lanes and a loosening of the ridiculous restrictions on e-bikes in NSW are some other things that would help imho.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 6 days ago

The former is a driver education and training problem

I don't agree. Education and training can help and I do think they're a good idea. But fundamentally, they're not addressing the root cause of the problem, they're just a bandaid. The real fix is better road design. In cities, for example, clearly separating roads with a movement function from streets with a destination function, instead of the constant overuse of stroads that permeates our entire country's urban planning at present. It also means separated bike paths (which are actually not relevant in this post, because high-speed bunch rides belong on roads, not bike paths, but I'll bring it up because the conversation seems to have veered in a more generic direction) with raised priority crossings at intersections, offset from the road to provide maximum visibility. And yes, separated paths for bikes are also needed on inter-city routes.

[–] ForgottenUsername@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

We circulate the 'slow down and give cyclists space', and 'cyclists belong on the road' on every second bus and billboard. Everyone knows it they just don't do it.

I think defensive driving courses are a good idea for all drivers however they still won't stop this. The issue is complacancy and as you said, culture. Getting people to slow down on a quiet corner on a quiet road is near impossible in todays environment. To be clear they should do it, I just know they won't.

Driver education doesn't work, cos it's a cultural issue, youre right on the habits being passed from parent to child including the "just overtake this cyclist now" habits. This culture will be passed down irrespective of who does the driver training. And I'd also like to say on a sidenote, some consistency in driver training across states would be friggin amazing.

As a motocyclist (youre braver than i, for me driver behaviour will keep me off all motorbikes not on a farm) you would have experienced first hand bad driver behaviours even though motorbike messaging and education has been around for yonks.

That's why we need to take more proactive measures now like the escort cars (wilst maintaining the exisiting messaging), until that cultural shift occurs, which unfortunately in this country could be decades.

[–] Showroom7561@lemmy.ca 33 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Did this car have autonomy for it to crash into a group of people, or did a driver do the murdering?

Headlines really need to convey who's responsible.

The car didn't crash into a group of bikes. A car driver crashed into a group of people riding bikes.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 12 points 1 week ago

I'm just happy this wasn't in the passive voice tbh

[–] psud@aussie.zone 8 points 1 week ago

In Australia the driver is always responsible. We have no cars allowed to self drive, though we do have cars with a lot of autonomy.

Also autonomy systems are better at emergency braking than human drivers, the fact the car hit a tree hard enough to leak petrol suggests there was no braking at all

[–] grue@lemmy.world 25 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

Yet again, an article that's actually about a driver running over and killing cyclists phrasing the title in exculpatory passive voice. SMH

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

phrasing the title in exculpatory passive voice

Uhh, this isn't passive voice, though? Passive voice would be "cyclists are crashed into by car". This makes it pretty clear: the car is the thing that actively caused harm here.

[–] grue@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yeah, I misspoke slightly. I'm not sure what the correct terminology is (for excusing the person by blaming the inanimate object/tool), though, so I can't correct it.

[–] redwattlebird@lemmings.world 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

How come the article goes into depth about the driver? I also want to know the state of the other cyclists who were crashed into.

And the car catching on fire later is a bit suspicious.

All in all, not surprising but disappointing all around. I hope the driver is charged for manslaughter.

Edit: Driver died this morning. Frustrating outcome for all as no charges will be made now that she's dead.