No Stupid Questions

The fact that the salute is so offensive, they did it so blatantly, and their denial was so disingenuous is the point. It's a demonstration of power. They can do a Nazi salute and their opponents can't punish them. They can deny that they did a Nazi salute and their opponents can't control the narrative. If they did something more subtle, then people might think that they weren't facing any consequences because their opponents were giving them the benefit of the doubt. With the Nazi salute there is no doubt. The only explanation for why they aren't facing any consequences is that their opponents are powerless.

My theory is that they try to push the line on what is acceptable. For example, if you want something say you want 11 but what is acceptable is between 1 and 10. Then an 11 is not possible. But if you normalize 15 and keep pushing that, then 11 doesn't seem so unreasonable after a while.

I see this being done constantly. Say that your plan is to do something extreme (take Canada), everyone panics and then get what you actually wanted. If nobody reacts, do the extreme thing.

he's trolling leftists on twitter who use the term nazi to refer to racists in general

It's always been there. Just now that people in power are the Nazis ppl can come out

They've been doing Zeig Heils for years.

I wish I could find the documentary, about a woman who dated some alt right weirdo and he started taking her to like Turning Point USA meetings and other groups meetings and she describes how the first time she did Zeig Heils, and they just did this shit like it was normal. She describes going to a book burning, thinking it was a joke, and then it was like an actual book burning.

It's all nudge nudge wink wink. They're doing Nazi salute because they are Nazis.

Edit: Believe the documentary is called "White Right: Meeting the Enemy." Available here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ0rhh5mbnA

Non-American here. My brother and dad STILL cling the the narrative of "He's autistic, he was excited." and nothing will disusde them from that.

What you're seeing is the end of Truth.

Especially in the face of AI generated photos, we're dealing with a future where the youth can easily be misled about what actually happened in the past, or even in the current moment. There is very much an upswing of young people questioning established narratives of the past, often under the guise of "well you weren't there, how do you know for sure?"

Reality is perception, and they are busy managing reality to deny any perception of Nazi behavior.

It's why Musk especially lies so fluidly and easily in the face of hard evidence.

It's all perception management, and as long as they keep talking and keep repeating the same lies, a significant number of people will believe them.

Musk still claims it wasn't a Nazi salute, and a significant number of people believe him. It's kind of like Trump's statement that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue and not lose any support. It's all attack, never back down, never admit fault.

EDIT: It's also Bannon's "flood the zone with shit" strategy at work, too. We've been in an Attention Economy for a long time now (at least since 2007 when the iPhone put a screen in everyone's pocket), and they know people's attention is limited, so they work to force themselves into people's limited time and attention spans. If your message is the only one they have time to hear, they'll probably be more likely to consider yours true. This, for example, is why Musk forced himself into everyone's Twitter feeds, he's force feeding himself the limited attention of millions.

I wonder the same, my theory is that this gesture is used both as a loyalty test and a way to further polarize society.

Making this gesture draws clear lines in society: those who say it was fine, those who say it wasn't, those who don't take a stance (ie the media calling it a "controversial gesture" or similar). So Musk & al now have a clearer idea of who stand where. It also cleaves those "for" and those "against" further away, solidifying their base.

Another explanation is this is part of the normalization of extreme rethoric and symbols. I doubt he could have gotten away with it ten years ago; who knows what they'll be able to do and say in 2035?

Yet another possibility, he did it on a whim and the neo-nazis like Bannon are now seizing the opportunity. It's unclear how planned this was and how intentional the consequences were.

(And all might be true at once)

Nazis didn't come around all of a sudden, either. People have always, on the whole, been horrible. What changes is what is culturally acceptable to talk about.

They wrote a nazi manifesto, it got reported on widely, they barely denied it and they won anyway.

Nothing that is happening on their end is the slightest bit unexpected, so I'm just isolating myself from America and Americans as much as I can until I don't get a choice. However, when I see things like ths post by accident I do feel a remarkable urge to grab anybody who expresses disappointment or surprise and shake them by the lapels until they pass out.

Just a lack of Nazi hunters.

When the Hail Hydra comes out a little too early so they call it a speech impediment.

we're in the end stages of a campaign by assholes to overthrow our deomocracy.

It's been getting waged for decades. they've been doing this shit for years, behind closed doors and they now feel comfortable with being nazis in public.

They want people to feel like rebels with a cause.

This is a good symbol to make a lot of people your enemies. Your ingroup can now rally against "the establishment".

It couldn't work before, because it made too many enemies for your small ingroup, but we've reached a tipping point where it is feasible to keep a thing going for a while.

They feel safe, that's why they salute now.

People become less hospitable in economic downturns, remember the original Nazis exploited that in the Versailles hit Weimar.

It wasn't sudden, this shit's been muddying the waters for a decade and the precursors were seeping in for another decade or more before that.

It's so weird to me that it's ketamine, incidentally. Like, maybe I'd understand it more if Musk was heavy into cocaine, but the biggest ket users I know basically just drop off the grid, wear the same cardigan for a year straight and boof crystals in their van with their polycule... Not this Nazi shit. It's so weird.

if you think the right wing being filled with nazi is a new phenomenon, I've got a bridge to sell you

I think, at least for those in their ranks who are not (yet) convinced Nazis anyway, it's a similar principle to the mafia: the newly recruited opportunists have to publicly spout Nazi slogans to prove themselves - just as a soldier in the Cosa Nostra has to have committed a serious crime, many particularly serious ones, if he ever wants to become a "capo".

Like other criminal organizations, MAGA tries to protect itself from potential informants, I think. If you only recruit people who are unscrupulous enough to openly admit to this Nazi bullshit, there's less chance of someone having a conscience and making all their shady dealings public.

They were always Nazis. The more mainstream-seeming "alt-right" guys were just suit Nazis. They feel more comfortable coming out in the open now, even if it's still a bit draped in "doing it for lulz" deniability. I'm skeptical that they're fully aware that it'll hurt their legitimacy. They're dug in like ticks in their echo chamber, are constantly goading each into being more openly extreme, and celebrate the push back there.