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Anarchism

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What do you mean when you guys say "Anarchism"? (midwest.social)

submitted 1 year ago by DaSaw@midwest.social to c/anarchism@lemmy.ml

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I generally use "anarchist" to describe my political philosophy. I'm pretty sure I'm using it correctly, but I'm not certain. I haven't had much contact with other "anarchists", just a bit of exposure through history and such.

First off, to me, "anarchism" doesn't mean "no government". Rather it means "no intrinsic authority". What I see among historical anarchists is an opposition to practices that, frankly, aren't all that often practiced any more, in the political realm. I'm referring to rule by bloodline and such, nobility and royalty. I get the impression the early anarchists wanted to do away with royal governance, in favor of a federation of voluntary governments instituted at the local level. Which is to say, they believed in government; they just wanted to do away with imposed external authority.

But I do see our current economic relations as having a great deal of externally imposed authority in it... though going into my beliefs about why, and what could be done about it, would be beyond the scope of this essay.

To me, anarchism means the following:

Favoring no unnecessary relationships of authority.
Where authority is necessary, it should be granted by those over whom the authority is exercised, directly and individually, to the greatest extent practicable. So, for example, if we have an economic system that leaves both employers and employees with the same level of market power (we do not, but if we did), the employer-employee relationship would qualify, since it commences by choice of both parties, and can end by the choice of either party.
Where this is impracticable, the authority in question should always be temporary, with a clearly delineated end. For example, the parent-child relationship is necessarily one of authority, since children lack the faculties to make all the decisions one needs to make. But this relationship should be premised on preparing the child to survive outside this relationship, and have a clear end point (the point of their majority). And I mainly include this but just for the parent-child relationship; I can't think of any others.

All this being said, I know there are those for whom Anarchism means "no government", usually detractors who don't actually understand the philosophy... or so I assume. Do I assume incorrectly? Is my use of the term wildly incorrect? I really don't know.

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[–] fomo_erotic@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I find there is a lot of intellectualizing and circlejerking around what anarchism 'is' and 'isnt', which is super weird to be because its pretty much antithetical to the philosophy. I've always found it extremely off putting and pretty reminiscent of the kind of circle jerking that happens in online libertarian or online tankie circles. It seems to come from people with no lived experience whose entire perspective is based on the kinds of conditions set up by modern social media (identifying with, describing ones self as, talking and presenting rather than doing or being).

My experience of anarchism is that of free association. Its people doing for themselves and choosing to do so for those around them as well. Its the idea that we don't need some intellectual, political, or authority to tell us how to form social systems or community. Community and society are emergent properties of the human species, not some a tautology described in some text-book or pamphlet. Its not an intellectual exercise, but a physical process. Its digging a garden with your friends to feed yourselves because you don't want to be hungry and you don't want them to be hungry either. Its free association. Its some one in your community learning to do small engine repair because if not the elephant grass is going to take over. Its making art because art is beautiful and amazing and it doesn't need to have any other purpose than that. Its a recognition that for the moment, you are alive, and thats enough.

Anarchism is that idea that we are enough and that is plenty. I'm abhorent to the idea of intellectual anarchism. Its not the thing, but a copy of it. If you want to be anarchist, live it.

I think Le Guins Dispossessed is a good material description of what a lived anarchism ends up looking like. When you read it you know that Le Guin has lived parts of this as well. Its scraping the earth for some calories. Its often times not having much, but having enough. Its taking responsibility for yourself and those around you. Its doing the work yourself and not expecting others to do it for you. If you want to find out what anarchism is, go to the places where it is happening and grab a shovel and do your part to make it a reality.

[–] andreasm@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Sounds like the Greek sceptics.

I also often dream about the time when humans will finally walk back into the forests.

I find the problem to be greater. Some of the best of humanity comes from collaboration, large-scale collaboration. It is likely the only way we'll reach to the stars, for example, should we want to do that.

How collaboration is fostered matters long term - just look at the difference in quality between free and corporate software. Corporate software sucks in comparison, most likely because coercion and "must" is a bad form of collaboration between humans.

Tough problem to solve. Anarchism offers voluntary federalism as a solution, and what you describe as grabbing a shovel with friends to make ends meet.

[–] dantescanline@lemmy.fmhy.ml 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

From my perspective "necessary authority" is a meaningless phrase. Authority is always justified to those who support it, and unjustified to those suffering under it. For example, the authority of a particular country to enforce it's borders is "justified" in order to preserve those borders. The authority of a catholic priest is "necessary" to uphold the values of the church against sin and pollution of the faith. But if you don't believe in those institutions then the justification is very silly! Anarchists just take this one step further and realize there is no single true authorized power structure.

Anarchists can do away with authority and just act directly. If some of us agreed to live a certain way it's us deciding that we want to do that. We don't need to hit others over the head with a magic scroll or manifesto to prove we are justified, and we don't need to ask their permission first. Likewise, if someone wants to push us around we don't give them the benefit of the doubt through authority. They're just another person trying to push us around, whether they're a government agent or a highway bandit.

How you approach others is what makes your world the way it is. If you want to treat others as equals, directly, and engage with them without an intermediary we could say you're an anarchist. If you think you need government (an authority, legitimate justified power) to push others around, i'd say you're not.

[–] DaSaw@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, by "necessary authority", I'm referring to two kinds of roles. The first is coordination, when you have a large group of people that functions better if you have someone who's job it is to do things like maintain the schedule, coordinate reception, sales, and production, and things like that. The other is the teacher-student relationship, where by necessity the student kind of has to just obey because, by definition, he does not yet have the knowledge to fully evaluate the usefulness of whatever it is he's being told to do. A semantic case could be made that this "isn't really authority", but a semantic case could also be made that it is. I am open to more precise terminology.

When you talk about doing away with authority and just acting directly, I wonder how much experience you have in leadership. I don't have a lot, but the one time I was in a position (organizing events for a little fan club), there were a few who weren't comfortable with my "hands off" approach to managing interpersonal relations within the group. When a problem finally did arise, it was the very people who were complaining who were at the center of the problem. I ended up having to kick them out. This works well enough as a fan club, but on a larger scale, outlaws are often armed, and dangerous, and if there's a way to avoid the situation entirely, that way is probably a good idea. I figure that's why almost every society has a guy in a funny hat or something whose only real job is to say "I'm in charge". Generally speaking the actual leadership is done by others most of the time (in political theory this is the separation of the head of state from the head of government), but just having that guy there makes a certain type of person feel better, and behave better.

[–] dantescanline@lemmy.fmhy.ml 3 points 1 year ago

the simple or flavorful use of 'authority' usually just means someone is well respected on a topic "She's an authority on electrical motors" or that they posses some leadership qualities and are well liked.

the second and more dictionary definition of authority is authorization to rule. literally to dominate others because they are seen as legitimate.

your example of a club is a good test ground for these differences. it's up to you to run your club, make agreements with other members and share responsibilities even if people are happy to let you decide things or do most of the work. but your club doesn't have any claim to legitimacy, to true authority, because it doesn't seek to control ALL activities of that type. in the case of government, it very much does claim authority over the entire nation, to determine who can move where, who can work where and how, who must fight and who must be put to death.

there's no competition allowed with a structure like government. either obey or resist and face consequences. i'd much prefer a world of overlapping autonomous 'clubs' whose members decide for themselves than a world divided up by the greediest and most violent mafias.

[–] poVoq@slrpnk.net 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Modern Anarchists usually accept that there can be a multitude of community structures (like a community bank for example) that temporarily and voluntarily fulfil certain roles of a current government, and if you have a set of those it can seem like there is something like an government I suppose. But the vital difference is that a government always has implicit or not so implicit coercion and violence built in and is not something you can voluntarily choose to participate in, but you are rather forced to conform to.

[–] Rottcodd@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Actually, there's a very simple test for whether or not you're getting the concept.

Essentially, you're saying that you advocate for "government" with some significant constraints - that you don't believe that it should be "no government." It doesn't really matter what form the "government" might take or what the constraints might be - it's sufficient to the point that that's broadly what you want.

And you recognize that there are other people who believe that anarchism means no government at all - who want to be entirely free from any and all authority.

So the question is - would those people ever be subject to your "government"?

The only answer that's compatible with anarchism is "no."

In an anarchistic system, you would be entirely free to enter into whatever relationship you wanted with snyone else who was also willing. Were you so inclined, you could even appoint "royalty" to rule over you. It's your choice.

The thing that you could not do - not because it would somehow be prohibited but because the instant that you actually did it, the system would no longer be anarchistic - is make somebody else subject to the rule of your government contrary to their own will.

[–] andreasm@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The issue with this is the Ring of Power from the Lord of the Rings.

People would want to be part of this because the Ring pulls them closer. If they join, they have a chance at being King.

Then 5000 years of feudalism or totalitarianism passed and all the anarchists were slaughtered (... AGAIN.)

I believe anarchists need to have a more active relationship with power structures, but then is pre-emptive anarchism really anarchistic?

Perhaps the choice left to us the same choice as trees have. Grow and die and grow again.

Or.. Was Frodo an anarchist?

[–] anyparktos@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

What you are describing sounds to me like a pre-Proudhonian proto-anarchism; not yet fully formed to advocate for a totally horizontal non-hierarchical social structure. In modern political philosophy anarchism rejects all forms of authority, intrinsic or otherwise, and seeks to abolish all institutions that maintain authority over people such as governments and capitalism. So anarchism does absolutely mean “no government”, but this is an oversimplification and in no way a complete definition of anarchism.

no unnecessary relationships of authority

All relationships of authority are unnecessary.

The economic system with employers, employees and relationships of authority is capitalism. So would a free market system qualify as anarchism if the relationships are voluntary? No, it wouldn't. Not even if by magic employers and employees have the same market power. It would just be magical capitalism.

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