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submitted 10 months ago by spaduf@slrpnk.net to c/mensliberation@lemmy.ca
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[-] NathanielThomas@lemmy.ca 177 points 10 months ago

Interesting perspective. It would be really mind-blowing to see the other side of the gender, even though I have no interest in being trans.

One thing I will add to this article is that men are also viewed as little more than bank machines after divorce. People always have the utmost sympathy for any mother who is separated from her children, even if only for a few days. Movie plots can revolve around mothers finding their lost children and being reunited. But for men? We're only the providers, the ones who pay the child support.

I lost my kids (not legally, just boring old classic parental alienation) six years ago following the divorce. Nobody cares, because I'm just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides." None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I'm paying my "support." And I can't complain about it on social media because I'm a man. I'm a stoic. Boys don't cry, remember?

The lack of emotional support for men mentioned in the article is another thing that really exacerbates divorces and leads to suicides. I do feel like if I were the type of person to contemplate suicide (I'm not), I would have definitely done it when my ex took my kids from me. And there would have been no male friends to pull me back from the edge. Those friendships are, to quote the author, superficial to a large degree, or even the ones that aren't are men who are now focused heavily on their own families and wives.

I mean, it's also true all the other stuff about the male privilege and feeling safe and the good things that come with being a man. But it's nice to see the perspective of how we lack emotional support and we're expected to grit our teeth and "walk it off."

[-] FatalValentine@lemmy.blahaj.zone 91 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I hope I'm not intruding on men's spaces here as a transwoman,

But after my transition that was one of the biggest, most drastic contrasts between the two binary gender's social dynamics. Men just don't get to talk about their feelings- whether it stems from homophobia or misogyny, men are generally seen as an island to themselves and if you display otherwise, it is seen as a weakness worthy of admonition and disrespect. There is still a societal expectation that men are supposed to be stoic, stable providers while women are increasingly allowed liberation. Hard fought, and rightly so but what's the point of "equality" if we don't lift everyone up to the same standards?

I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women's spaces, seen as a woman. This just isn't fair or right, regardless of the other privelages men may have. Justice is for everyone, not just minorities.

Yet, it is up to men to decide this. Yes, women can and should support you, but remember who has the most power to change these standards. Women didn't have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.

*An edit for an addendum: I hope nobody reads this feeling that I'm blaming men, or being accusational. I want to clarify that I believe men do have the power to change this culture of emotional isolationism but it will require self-reflection, effort and a strong demand from oneself and other men to be willing to seek liberation- at the risk of what comes with shaking up the status quo.

[-] Specific_Skunk@lemmy.world 40 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

I have never felt more emotional support in my entire life than when I stepped into women's spaces, seen as a woman.

As a women that, granted, had some serious questions about gender in my younger years this has always blown my mind because it’s so multi-faceted.

Women are more emotionally supportive, but it can quickly spiral into an almost gross-feeling and superficial reinforcement. Everything seems to be “valid” or demands an emotion-ridden hullabaloo, whereas the men in my life have always been more direct and straightforward, unafraid to call out my general jack-assery or quip “yeah, that sucks” when there’s not much else to be said about my general state of affairs.

The flip side of this is that women tend to be more sympathetic/vocal to general life events and encouraging to mild up or down days, whereas men tend to cock an eyebrow and ask what you’re so excited/upset about when you show up to work “having feelings” on a random Tuesday because your spouse threw a fit about leftover spaghetti that morning.

The dichotomy is fascinating to me, to watch unfold every day with every interaction. I find myself (not correctly or incorrectly) leaning towards men in times of crisis (muted response), and towards women in times of -life in general- (exacerbated response) because it gives me the mean/median output of (normal human response).

However, this doesn’t mean men only have “regular” mode or “crisis” mode, or that women only live in an amplified wave of “normal” and “slightly less normal”, and I think that’s where we find our faults. Our definition of the masculine and the feminine revolve around a dead sun that no longer serves us well. Men ARE emotionally supportive, and women ARE reserved/stoic, it’s just not always what you expect at the time so it gets glossed over and deleted, to the detriment of everyone.

Women didn't have to demand other women for suffrage, they had to demand it from men. It is the same here for emotional liberation.

Spitting straight-up facts.

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[-] bouh@lemmy.world 21 points 10 months ago

It's not only a question of men. If you want a romantic relationship, you need to fit the society's standards for the sex you are looking for. If women are looking for toxic virility, the sad truth is that men who embrace it will have an easier time finding a relationship.

This is not something you take from anyone. And this is the biggest problem many men have with the #metoo era: we acknowledge toxic masculinity is toxic and can even be deadly, but what is the alternative? There is none currently.

There is no model for modern men that is worthy of both modern men and women. This is why we have incels and other hardcore conservative going hard on hating women or even more toxic masculinity.

But I digress. The solution is not in a fight, it's in acceptance from both men and women.

[-] spaduf@slrpnk.net 21 points 10 months ago

Your perspective is absolutely welcome here! I'm transfemme myself

[-] MrSqueezles@lemm.ee 16 points 10 months ago

Thank you for sharing. I haven't figured out the magic words to communicate this well. I worked at a company that proudly announced longer maternity care for newborns, an astounding (for the US) 6 months. Fathers got 2. I'm a dad and wasn't going to have any more kids, but some of us spoke up and suggested that dads deserve time with their children as well. It was explained that mothers have special connections with children (nursing) and are genetically (yuck) more loving caretakers. Their brains are wired for empathy, so they deserve more time. Remember when we all agreed it was awful to say men are better at logic and reasoning? Me neither because it was so long ago. How is this okay? And we wonder why far more women drop out of the workforce to become full time parents.

There's a theory that women quit to care for kids because they don't have enough support, so let's give them extra time off, extra health care benefits, recovery support, reinforcing stereotypes and gender roles. It's the most ass backward approach to what should be the goal to encourage husbands to take larger roles in families. When a man speaks up, he's part of the patriarchy, suppressing women's voices. Women need to be heard and supported, not mansplained. If anyone can suggest how to change the conversation without being labeled a bully while simultaneously being bullied, I would love to learn.

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[-] hoodlem@hoodlem.me 36 points 10 months ago

Nobody cares, because I'm just a man. Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides." None of my cousins or other parts of my family care either. So long as I'm paying my "support." And I can't complain about it on social media because I'm a man. I'm a stoic. Boys don't cry, remember?

That is the worst. So sorry you’re having to deal with that and not get support from the men in your life.

[-] the_itsb@midwest.social 23 points 10 months ago

I'm sorry about the parental alienation you and your children have suffered, that's terrible for everyone.

Not even my own father cares. He happily continues to see his grandkids because he doesn't want to "take sides."

I'm confused why you wouldn't want him to see them. Isn't in your best interest to have people who love you and think you're a good dad in your kids' lives? Somebody to counter the alienating narrative in whatever ways they can?

[-] NathanielThomas@lemmy.ca 52 points 10 months ago

Oh I'm fine with him seeing his grandkids but he has no empathy for my situation, considering it a dispute between myself and my ex. He even shares details from his trips to see them, as though that wouldn't hurt me to hear about it. His lack of empathy is the problem.

My mother, on the other hand, criticized my ex for the situation and was "cut off." So, despite the fact I'm sad that my mother can't see her grandkids because she, unlike my dad, did take sides, I feel like she had the empathy to stick up for her son and point out it the situation isn't right.

I will also mention my brother was "cut off" because of his close associations with me.

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[-] ansiz@lemmy.world 98 points 10 months ago

Maybe it's because I live in a rural area, but no guy I know seems interested/comfortable with any kind of emotionally deep relationship with another guy. Definitely not throwing shade there, I feel the same way and completely unprepared on how to speak with anyone other than my wife emotionally.

The more seemingly well adjusted guys are all family guys with kids, so they basically have no time to do anything that doesn't involve the kids.

The ones without kids and the guys that never married or divorced all got into solitary hobbies like hunting or fishing. I like to trail run, so it's basically the same with me. I feel like it's basically impossible to make friends with another guy and I do try to!

Something I talk to a therapist about but otherwise have little idea what to do with is the fact that I literally have no actual guy friends, just coworkers and a few old college buddies that live hours away, so we only get together about one a year. I feel like the article was pretty good and it is very interesting that a trans man was able to capture the feeling so well.

[-] Noedel@lemmy.world 46 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

It's definitely cultural as well. I'm European and never struggled to make guy friends. I moved to New Zealand which is very British, and I really struggle here. My guy friends are other immigrants from Europe or South America. However, 80 percent of my friends are female. I love them but at times I definitely do miss having more dudes to hang out with.

Kiwi blokes are super quiet and steer away from serious conversation. It's really hard here.

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[-] johnlobo@lemmy.world 19 points 10 months ago

i thought men in rural area have more friends, i thought men in rural area go fishing/hunting/camping with their friends. maybe i thought wrong.

[-] guyrocket@kbin.social 70 points 10 months ago

I am glad this perspective is being presented. I think ftm people have a unique view of how difficult it can be to be a man that throws light on a lot of men's issues.

I hope this person can present more along these lines. I think I could come up with hundreds of questions.

[-] Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone 49 points 10 months ago

I'm a trans guy who transitioned in the 2000s. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have on the unique perspective of men's issues from someone who spent 20 ish years as a woman.

[-] guyrocket@kbin.social 43 points 10 months ago

Thank you, Kit.
Here are some questions:

  1. I don't know if women really understand how powerful testosterone is. What was/is your experience with it?
  2. What other biological differences did you notice? Were they temporary or permanent?
  3. How do you think men and women can better understand each other?
  4. What are some things you would change about women? And about men?
  5. What did you think about strip clubs when you were a woman? Did that opinion change as a man? Why and how?
  6. What did you think about women before transitioning and how did that change after you transitioned? And also about men.

I don't want to wear out my welcome so I'll stop there. No rush to answer, I'd prefer more complete answers to quick ones.

[-] Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone 29 points 10 months ago
  1. For me, testosterone primarily feels like the ability to focus and critically think - like my head was foggy before and is now clear. Everything seems to be logical, and my ability to troubleshoot complex issues is dramatically stronger when my T levels are good. Without T, everything feels extremely emotional and even minor things feel like they're high-stakes. That's not to say that I don't feel emotion with T, rather the emotions are more appropriate for the situation. I do find that I care less about people in general when on T - For example, when I see a stranger with a problem I don't feel like I have an obligation to help them whereas before I had an intristic need to help everyone around me.
  2. I had many biological changes, such as a change in body fat and muscle, significant facial/body hair, hair thinning - which is a miserable conversion in and of itself, period loss, and changes in my genitals that I would prefer not to discuss. All of these were euphoric to me, meaning they made me feel good and more like myself.
  3. I think that the best way for a man to understand a woman and vice-versa is to roleplay online as the opposite gender. For example, you may have noticed that people are more willing to help and harass you as a female character. Male characters mostly get ignored.
  4. I thought on this one for a while and couldn't come up with a strong response that doesn't just parrot the talking points of this community.
  5. I felt indifferent and uninterested in strip clubs before transitioning. I still feel the same way. They just seem like a bad time to me.
  6. Before transitioning I didn't understand gender dynamics at all. I thought it was a level playing field and had no grasp on the many courtesies and dangers that women face that men do not, and vice-versa. It's often frustrating to see people rag on men's or women's behavior/privilege/issues, because people rarely hit the mark on reality.

I did also want to mention that one thing blew my mind - The way that the dynamics of a room change when it's all men, versus when there's a single woman in the room. With all men, it seems like guys relax and suddenly don't feel the need to walk on eggshells. Social courtesies become significantly less important and men tend to communicate more directly. Next time you're in a room of all men and a woman walks in, keep an eye out for the subtle differences in how men behave.

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[-] simplecyphers@lemmy.world 62 points 10 months ago

TIL my friendships with my bros are about 5x healthier than average.

I read this thought it sounded super melodramatic and exaggerated. I guess it’s just more rare to have deep friendships with the boys. Looking back it got me thinking that I might be the weird one with friends that have deep conversations and know/worry about the others mental health.

So i guess, to any guys that read this and felt like it could have been written about them: go out on a limb and talk to your friends. Chances are they want/need a more meaningful friendship too. They are also probably similarly apprehensive about opening up.

[-] toynbee@lemm.ee 20 points 10 months ago

I have no issue opening up to other men, so long as they're receptive, but very often (almost universally) I've ended up regretting it when I have done so.

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[-] homoludens@feddit.de 16 points 10 months ago

I try to do that, but somehow it's magnitudes harder to talk to men and I can't figure out why. I'm probably already more open about how I feel than most men (at least in part because of the communities I chose to be part of, therapies, age, ...), but opening up to women (or non-binary persons) feels way more natural and easy for me and I don't even know if that's because other men's reaction to these topics are somehow subtly different (even with men who are also rather open) or because of some inhibitions on my behalf (e.g. not feeling safe around them because of bad experiences or because of an absent father figure or...).

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[-] Aagje_D_Vogel@feddit.nl 43 points 10 months ago

This story reminds me of an ex girlfriend that wanted me to open up. So I did. She left me after that. The end result was good though, as it made me realize I needed some professional mental assistance.

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[-] gapbetweenus@feddit.de 38 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

Men started treating me like their guy friends, which was exactly what I wanted. What I didn't know is that male friendships aren't as deep.

That is also my experience - never could emotionally open or connect to my male friends. While (from time where I learned it) not having the same problem with women in relationships or friendship. I feel always a bit on guard with other men, always a bit performing. But at the same time I never made an negative experience with opening up being emotionally vulnerable.

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[-] HappyMeatbag@beehaw.org 37 points 10 months ago

I’m a white, cis, heterosexual American male. I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.

I wouldn’t know how to express my feelings the way the author has. I’d feel like a misogynistic neckbeard, callous racist, or ungrateful whiner. If, somehow, I didn’t feel these things, someone would quickly, loudly, and condescendingly remind me that I should. They’d then be applauded for putting me in my place.

I can’t thank the author enough for writing this article.

[-] homoludens@feddit.de 24 points 10 months ago

I’m supposed to be privileged in every way, feel endlessly guilty over things I cannot control and try not to perpetuate, and never, ever dare suggest any kind of dissatisfaction with my situation.

Why are you supposed to e.g. "feel endlessly guilty over things you cannot control"?

[-] USSMojave@startrek.website 28 points 10 months ago

Yeah, just because we're encouraged to understand our privilege doesn't mean we're supposed to feel guilty about it. That doesn't serve anyone.

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[-] Smk@lemmy.ca 36 points 10 months ago

It's very interesting to have the view of a women that has transitioned to a men on the feeling side of things. I wonder how the transition is actually affecting his current relationship.

My experience as a man does look like what he talks about however, it's not as crazy as he is saying. His depiction of manhood feels almost satire to me. Almost all of my interaction with men, I feel safe enough to talk about my problems, my feelings and my opinions on things, both personal or not.

Although, I am me and I do not represent all other men, It's not untrue that men are lead to believe that they must be the one to shut up and provide for their community/family. Shut up and die for your family, you country. Shut up and do what you have to do. If you really do that, I think you just end up lonely, sad and probably really suicidal.

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[-] o0joshua0o@lemmy.world 33 points 10 months ago

This really resonates, mainly because it's so true. I think a lot of men these days are feeling lost, sad, lonely, and angry. Some of us think it's because we have forgotten what it means to be a "real" man, and the answer is more bravado, more machismo. But maybe what we actually need is to start learning to communicate with each other on a meaningful level, to redefine manhood in a way that allows us to express emotions in a socially acceptable way, and start forming real, close friendships with other men.

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[-] HawlSera@lemm.ee 31 points 10 months ago

I'm mtf, being a woman made my life much much easier

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[-] Nelots@lemm.ee 29 points 10 months ago

The comments at the bottom of the article though... I really hate people sometimes.

[-] agissilver@lemmy.world 27 points 10 months ago

Oof they are awful, and indicative of the issues raised in the article. So many of the men commenting are defending the "man" stereotype as "natural", and ignoring that men have issues existing in society probably because of the pressures of that stereotype. Nobody wants men to feel isolated and lonely and kill themselves 4x as much. I don't think that's a "natural" part of being a man. At least it doesn't have to be.

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[-] ragepaw@lemmy.ca 22 points 10 months ago

As a minor example supporting a lot of what's in that article, my wife went out to hang with a friend of hers, and I hung out with a buddy for a couple of hours. When she came home she asked me how he is, and I said, "I don't know, I didn't ask". She seemed shocked and can't understand why I say we don't have those kinds of conversations.

[-] Phen@lemmy.eco.br 20 points 10 months ago

I still get sad at the surprise women have when I move before they do

Is this actually a thing? I've always moved away from everyone's path and never noticed anyone feeling surprised by that. And from every man I've ever walked with, I can only remember one who I noticed didn't make room for other people.

[-] threadloose@midwest.social 18 points 10 months ago

Oh, it's totally a thing. I'm a woman and short, so I'm below the eye line of most men, and I've had men plow right over me on crowded sidewalks or at events. Most men expect the woman to yield in that situation and they'll get annoyed if you don't. It actually is surprising when a man moves out of the way, though I don't know if it shows on my face.

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this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2023
441 points (86.3% liked)

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