Meanwhile most people: the answer to who is the bad guy is:
Both. Both is good
this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
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Ah yes, the millions of innocent palestianians that had their homeland taken from them and are now being bombed are literally just ask guilty as the people doing the invading and bombing. Very enlightened take.
The problem with saying "both" is that there are 5 groups involved, maybe even 6.
- The Israeli government
- The Israeli people
- The West Bank Palestinian government (Fatah)
- The Gaza Strip Palestinian government (Hamas)
- The Palestinian people (arguably separate groups to account for differing levels of suffering and oppression)
I'd agree that "both" are bad if you mean the Israeli government and Hamas, though to different degrees at different times. I'd agree "both" are victims if you mean the Israeli and Palestinian peoples, though undoubtedly the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are the most victimized right now and in general.
Ah sorry, just made a comment outlining the parties that I am talking about lol, clearly stating it’s Hamas and the Israeli government
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My take is very simple:
-are they actively targeting civilians? If yes then bad:
-Israeli government- yes, then bad.
-Hamas- yes, then bad.
-are they following what is recognised as international law (namely the 1993 Oslo agreements):
-Israeli government- while they formally recognise Palestine as a state, they have consistently undermined the Palestinian authority and occupied much of the West Bank without a plan for either self governance or leaving, settling parts of the West Bank aggressively, therefore bad.
-Hamas- does not recognise Israel in any way and openly calls for its destruction, therefore bad.
I don't think Hamas soldiers are usually in uniform and Hamas bases don't have signs saying "Hamas military base" on them. They couldn't exist if they were easily distinguishable from civilians. Naturally Israel abuses this natural opposition to their oppression by escalating the oppression.
They are essentially a state (as they do control Gaza with state powers) and as such, they must abide by the rules of war just like any other
Not how the Geneva Conventions work but okay
I think the only reason Israel should exist today is that people already live there and it would be a mistake to force them out and create more displacement. That being said, Israel, a supremacist ethnostate, should never have had the right to exist... You shouldn't exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people, and then you are so deep in this shit you have to develop tech to be able to apartheid them all behind walls and systems and bullets, starving and dying. No, an entity like that should not deserve to exist. I still have hope that some reasonable Israelis will turn this all around, and Israel will stop being a genocidal mission.
You shouldn’t exist if you have to build your fucking country on the mass graves of the native people
So where do you draw the line? Most - if not all - countries were created with bloodshed at some point. People in my country moved into the area around ~1200 years ago and I don't think the locals welcomed the new inhabitants with open arms. So should we move back then? What about the people who now line in the place we (at least assume) to had come from?
So should we move back then?
Read the first sentence of the comment you just replied to.
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I support an elected government with secular state thank you
Does a historical claim hold weight over a long established later claim? No-one knows the answer to this one - how old must a claim be before it becomes invalid?
Are restrictive religious laws ok? I think the resounding answer is always "mine are, but theirs aren't", which really is just a recipe for war eternal. They never strike me as ok, because most of them focus on making a group of people "the other".
Is murdering civilians to achieve military objectives ok? No, it isn't, everyone knows that really - it's an idea that belongs in the middle ages and should have been left there.
I don't think I could join the Israel vs Palestine camps (both governments are shit - both are out for genocide), I think I prefer the camp filled with people who just want an end to the conflict, people who live on both sides of those ill defined borders.
What does everyone who matters (the people living through this hell) really want? They want their lives back, the ability to be themselves, and carry out their traditions undisturbed. Most of all, they want the killing and persecution to stop, and the time to mourn their losses.
How do we do that? Put the guns down, stop the bombardments and bombings, have each side treat the wounded of the other side, and then figure out the rest without starting the killing again.
Hamas isn't a government, it's a terrorist group. It's also horrible to Palestinians and it undermines the actual government of Palestine, the Palestinian Authority. There was just an article posted to Lemmy that talked about how Likud (the far right party governing Israel that's undermined peace talks multiple times) helped fund Hamas.
Oppressed people can't "put their guns down" because they're being exterminated. Only the oppressor can stop. If you're really against both Hamas and Israel, then you believe that Israel needs to stop committing genocide. If you're pretending "both sides" are equal, then you're playing the same game Trump said when he equated people waving Nazi and confederate flags witj people trying not to be killed by people waving Nazi and confederate flags by saying "both sides are to blame."
Pretending oppressed people have as much power as their oppressors is the game oppressors use to perpetuate their oppression.
Hamas isn’t a government, it’s a terrorist group. It’s also horrible to Palestinians and it undermines the actual government of Palestine, the Palestinian Authority.
The people of Gaza voted Hamas in, so Hamas is the actual government of Gaza. And also a terrorist organization.
You mean based on the election that happened 17 years ago? Considering the average age in Gaza is 18 it's pretty likely the people who voted for Hamas aren't even alive anymore.
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I think I prefer the camp filled with people who just want an end to the conflict, people who live on both sides of those ill defined borders.
I agree, but it's also arguably more complicated than this. I follow a DUI lawyer on youtube who happened to be in Israel (and fairly close to a crossfire) when the war started. He gave this very real and very neutral explanation of things those of us outside the region often miss, covering his upbringing in Israel.
Basically, he said, the most common opinion you can hear from either side is "the only good OTHER SIDE is a dead OTHER SIDE". From the mouths of civilians, from children. They believe it because their parents told them it and because they've lived through conflict that corroborates it.
To want peace at all costs, but to still instinctively dehumanize the other side is a very complicated place to be. And you can understand why both sides' civilians might feel that way about the other. So many people feel a desire for justice, but to both countries, justice is the other side being punished.
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I am always curious, why does Egypt not want to help Palestinian refugees? Or even allow then to travel through?
Good question. The official position is that they would not be able to go back to gaza once the war ended. And therefore they would be helping israel in displacing the palestinian people of their lands.
Plus, i suspect no one really wants 2M "permanent" refugees. On election season no less.
Because the guy who runs Egypt is a dictator. Guess who appointed him?
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This discussion happened between me and a Zionist just the other day
them: What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?
me: 17k of my people have been butchered by Israel
them: "As a Palestinian, you don’t have any criticism of Hamas ? Oct 7th was just an “act of resistance” according to your view?"
I wonder how people like that would treat me if they met me on the public street.
Don't leave us hanging, what is your answer to their last question?
I'm highly critical of Hamas and have lost many friends over it.
them: What would you do if 1200 of your people were butchered?
me: 17k of my people have been butchered by Israel
What's the timeline of these events?
Timeline? Hamas does a terror attack on Oct 7th and kills 1200 people, Israel responds by killing at least 17000 Palestinians over the next 2 months and that's just the lower end of the estimate.
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Within the same 2 months.
Zionists were using that phrase before Israel was even a state. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea?wprov=sfla1
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